r/StarWars Oct 02 '22

The Rule of Two was a failed idea imo. I love Bane but honeslty the Ro2 seemed like a failure. Yes they got stronger for sure but hiding for 1k years just to rule for 24 doesn't seem like a win. Also you may have killed the Jedi but the Sith are gone too because of the Ro2 General Discussion

173 Upvotes

83

u/Blackmore_Vale Oct 02 '22

The rule of 2 in theory is a great idea if the Sith stuck to it. The brotherhood of darkness as an example shows why having to many weak Sith at once is a bad idea. But here’s the thing only bane truly believed in the rule of 2. The rest was to busy trying to advance their own agendas.

33

u/Stonecutter_12-83 Oct 02 '22

Even Bane questioned how strong Zannah was and if she should be eliminated and start over again. I definitely see his point of the order weakening with the infighting but they really out themselves at risk with only two. Heck, what bad ship wreck and they are gone forever

44

u/The_DevilAdvocate Oct 02 '22

Doesn't even need a ship wreck.

The idea that the apprentice is going to attempt to kill the master is the rule.

So every single time there is a fight between the master and the apprentice, the fate of the entire order is at stake. If there's a tie, the Sith are gone.

21

u/gamerdude69 Oct 02 '22

If there's a tie, the Sith are gone.

E.g. when Darth Vader threw Palpatine down the Death Star's bootyhole, and then died

12

u/HK-53 Oct 02 '22

its kinda weird if you think about it. The rule of two means that they have to be selfless. The idea of training the person meant to kill you is a hard pill to swallow. It's not like you can just have a duel and the master can just surrender if he loses and retire.

18

u/The_DevilAdvocate Oct 02 '22

And if the apprentice loses, the master can't retire even if he is too old. He has to train another apprentice or the order is dead again.

1

u/just_human Oct 03 '22

That can be explained with arrogance just as well, or better, than selflessness.

7

u/JBaecker Oct 02 '22

But that’s kind of the point. For the Sith to survive one has to be strong enough to win and keep the order around. The Rule brings the fight for existence itself to the center of power.

5

u/Blackmore_Vale Oct 02 '22

Oh definitely on paper it’s a really good idea as it means that the apprentice has to be stronger or cleverer then then the master they are replacing. But as you said all it takes is a bad ship wreck like what happened to Plagius or one of them to become severely injured like what happened to bane and the whole things ends.

5

u/johannesBrost1337 Oct 02 '22

Bane and Zanna had a pretty epic fight to settle that though. Sheeesh, force Tentacles? Puh

0

u/InternationalWrap981 Oct 02 '22

Imho the rule of 2 worked well enough. In case of a tie/ both master and aprentice death, there are still sith holocrons / relics, tombs etc from which other people would learn of the teachings of the sith and a way to train in the dark side. We see this when bane finds darth revans holocron, palpatine is big on collecting sith memorabilia. Then you also have fallen jedi like ulric qel droma and exar Kun. There cannot be darkness without light, for darkness is the absence of light and without darkness there would be no light, for light is the absence of darkness.

24

u/Darthtypo92 Oct 02 '22

Well in legends the rule of two was just one order of the Sith. They still existed in other orders alongside and long after the Banenite rule ended. And according to Banenite law the rule worked perfectly since it accomplished it's goal of ruling the galaxy and ultimately destroying itself because it was too weak to wield that much power forever. Though you could argue in legends the Banenite Sith died out two Sith Lords before Palpatine since Tenebrous and Plagueis sought immortality through different means rather than trying to continue the legacy of the Sith through apprentices.

Banenite rule wasn't expressly trying to perpetually continue the Sith but to create an eventual god like sith lord who was powerful enough and skilled enough to rule the entire galaxy by themselves. And anyone too weak or foolish enough to do that would be replaced by a more powerful sith or simply erased from existence for not being powerful enough and being unworthy of being a Sith. It's a self defeating philosophy that even Darth Bane would consider Palpatine's rise and fall in canon and legends as a success.

7

u/Narad626 Oct 02 '22

I think this is the right way to think of it.

The Rule of Two prevailed because of its separate and secretive nature of the Rule, and because the Siths nature always resulted with in-fighting that would lead to their downfall.

So when the only ones left are the two "zealots" that adhere to their dogma tightly that also keep to themself when the world around them goes to pot they're going to come out on top by default.

91

u/-TheFarce- r/StarWarsMod Oct 02 '22

a failed idea

Of course it's a failed idea, because it did fail

And the Sith never fully and truly eradicated the Jedi.

36

u/SmoothCriminalJM Oct 02 '22

For the Rule of Two to work; the Sith actually need to succeed, something they just aren’t capable of

-1

u/Gavinus1000 Rebel Oct 02 '22

Lmao. Death Star level burn.

42

u/in_a_dress Asajj Ventress Oct 02 '22

The sith will always ultimately fail in the end because they’re evil. They failed under rule of 2, they failed before that when they had an entire order.

19

u/SmoothCriminalJM Oct 02 '22

Sith always fail because they end up fighting amongst themselves more then they fight the Jedi. It’s why Maul lost, why Sidious died( twice) and why Kyle Ren died.

34

u/VoxSig Oct 02 '22

No. Evil will always triumph, because good is dumb

20

u/[deleted] Oct 02 '22

Lord Helmet has spoken

0

u/Sun-Dial101 Oct 02 '22

Both good and evil fail and win, alternating between each other, one will ultimately give way to another continuously in a cycle

7

u/Jausti018 Oct 02 '22

It literally can’t work. The sith can’t win in Star Wars. Not long term at least.

7

u/tinfang Oct 02 '22

To say that Sith own the dark is folly, don't you feel this?

3

u/DizzyAssociation7010 Maul Oct 02 '22

Can you feel it? (Can you feel it?)

26

u/sean_bda Oct 02 '22

Only because Palpatine abandoned it. If he had taken his time and waited a little longer, stayed in the shadows he could have won. Imagine for example he made Dooku chancellor. As in dooku left the order publicly to pursue politics and became chancellor. Even if the jedi discovered he was sith they would have assumed he was the sith lord and wouldn't have even looked for palps. He could have still groom anakin and revealed he was Sith to him. Anakin could have been the one to discover dooku if dooku did begin to fail. Then anakin kills dooku and replaces him as a hero with Padme at his side as the good guys but really palpatine rules from the shadows. Rinse and repeat.

5

u/DontAskHaradaForShit Mandalorian Oct 02 '22

So basically if Palpatine pulled a Dick Cheney maneuver instead of having himself declared Emperor of the galaxy and painting a massive target on his own back?

2

u/Stonecutter_12-83 Oct 02 '22

Oooo I never heard of that idea. That's pretty neat.

1

u/Crazyguy75 Qui-Gon Jinn Oct 02 '22

Only thing is, the reason everything escalated the way it did was from Anakins force vision of Padme dying. Had he not what you wrote was a possible outcome. But I guess Dooku died before he had the vision iirc.

2

u/KillingTime_ForNow Oct 03 '22

Isn't it said in one of the novels that Palpatine gave him that vision through the force?

0

u/Crazyguy75 Qui-Gon Jinn Oct 03 '22

I have not read the novels unfortunately.

5

u/Londonforce Oct 02 '22

In Bane's defense, we have no reason to believe that the Sith would not have continued to rule indefinitely had the Force itself not intervened to create the Skywalkers.

3

u/Appropriate_Pop4968 Oct 02 '22

Not sure if it’s canon but I imagine the rule of two was put in place with the idea of consolidating power. If there were a bunch of sith, they would all be trying to gain more power and killing each other. Having said that though I would love to see how the sith develop post sequel era. I would love seeing a team of sith or something with out a big baddie, just a rag tag team of nay sayers and ne’er do wells.

2

u/Aggressive_Walk857 Oct 02 '22

This is what the one sith were. A group of sith lead by darth krayt

3

u/cheezz16 Oct 02 '22

The Ro2 is essentially minmaxing

6

u/mastyrwerk Oct 02 '22

Palpatine didn’t like the Rule of 2. He had many apprentices he kept secret from each other and made promises to others that they would be apprentices. They were all disposable, though. He had no intention of passing his legacy onto any of them.

That was the point of the Clone Wars. Palpatine wanted to live forever and never pass on his legacy. Unfortunately cloning midichlorians wasn’t very successful, so he had to keep the research going so that he could eventually pass his consciousness to a new body and never give up his power.

7

u/RadicalLackey Oct 02 '22

No Sith ever wants to pass on their legacy. By nature, they cling to life selfishly (which is why they don't transcend). One part of the Ro2 is that the Master must find someone worthy to kill him. Problem with Vader is that Palpatine only focused on his power... after Episode 3 he got a killing machine, but not someone looking to be a Sith, not for real

2

u/UnholyDemigod Oct 02 '22

You claim it's a bad idea because it failed, because you have the benefit of seeing the timeline where the Sith were defeated. Bane didn't have a thousand years of foresight. That's like claiming Genghis Khan's ideas were a failure because his empire fractured a few decades after his death.
Not to mention, the Sith had several empires, and a multitude of wars against the Republic. They never managed to rule the galaxy. Under Bane's teachings, they did.

2

u/Zarathustra143 Emperor Palpatine Oct 02 '22

The Rule of Two was not a failure; it was the perfect solution to the problem the Sith faced as an organization, elegant and beautiful in its simplicity. How dare you impugn the Dark Lord.

2

u/DontAskHaradaForShit Mandalorian Oct 02 '22

Can't really blame Bane, these bitch ass Sith Lords can't follow rules and then they kill each other all the damn time instead of working together to achieve their goals. That's why the Sith honestly kinda suck at what they do, they're too petty and selfish to maintain order and it's a wonder that they ever accomplished anything at all.

2

u/NerdHistorian Torra Doza Oct 02 '22 edited Oct 02 '22

The thing is, the Ro2 wasn't a failed idea, it did what it was supposed to. The sith managed to, for a thousand years channel their self destructive tendencies into overthrowing both the republic and the jedi and assuming absolute dominion and it was primarily by means of the Ro2 and hiding until they were ready.

The problem is that the sith as a whole is a bad idea and they attempted to rule openly instead of just staying in the shadows being unseen puppet masters. More sith would have let them survive potentially catastrophic moments like a shipwreck, mutual kills in the duel for mastery or say, Endor, but would have assuredly meant they never survived long enough to make it to that point in the first place.

2

u/CableGuy_97 Oct 03 '22

Hit the proverbial nail on the head. Without the Ro2 they never even would’ve gotten together for a cohesive plan

1

u/SCUBASeattle Oct 02 '22

Pretty much, and to top it all off they always had "side apprentices" and garbage like that so there was almost always 3+ Sith working

1

u/orediggerco2 Oct 02 '22

I’m not sure if this is the Role of Two’s fault or if Palp was too greedy and too soon

1

u/Jfedable Oct 02 '22

Your over confidence is your weakness

1

u/RagingTails Oct 02 '22

The rule of two didn’t fail. Palpatine basically got rid of it and changed it to the rule of one. He didn’t have any intention of teaching Vader everything and purposely kept him weak so he could rule forever or at least as long as possible

1

u/snachgoblin Oct 02 '22

I thought the rule of two was man because the sith kept eachother killing for power?

1

u/Allronix1 Oct 02 '22

Something hit me when reading that Karpyshyn Bane book.

Okay, so where does Bane gets this crackpot idea? Revan's holocron.

Now, we roll with what we know from the allegedly canonical hot mess we see in SWTOR and what we can get from KOTOR. Revan was taught and raised by Kreia, who was...iconoclast at best. She wanted both the Jedi and sith wiped out because she saw their binary view of the Force to be childish, especially when the Force itself (and those who were subject to its influence the most) as the problem.

It's also very arguable that Karpyshyn's Revan was only operating as a "Sith" because of Vitiate having him by the balls, and was never a full blown believer in that ideology to start with...just like Kreia. The Jedi of the KOTOR era were happy to sit on their asses while the galaxy burned, and would (as happened in SWTOR) going to sit on those asses until the Sith broke down the door. So...those guys were going to be useless.

And Revan won the Mandalorian Wars by exploiting their cultural weakness - they didn't know when to stop fighting or how to not to go full tilk on every fight. So, Revan fought them to the point of exhaustion and then swooped in to overwhelm them. Time to take that to the Sith.

Every two bit asshole sith thinks he's the ubermensch, the Sith'ari, the ultimate expression of the Dark Side. And they also stab each other in the back and are completely incapable of collaboration or long term teamwork. So, let's play to that. Bane, who is a very powerful thug who thinks he's better than he really is, gets his mitts on this idea. He wipes out all of the experienced Sith who ARE capable of overcoming their weakness and working together (and were wiping out the Jedi at that point), and then starts with a system where it's just him and his apprentice...

Thing is, how much Sith knowledge was wiped out at Ruusan? How much has already been wiped out through various power grabs? (See Ajunta Pal) And now we have a system where a Master has every incentive to withhold knowledge to stay alive, and the Apprentice is always eager to jump the gun, probably before the Master has taught everything. This also doesn't take into account that the Force could just get tired of them and wipe them both out in a freak accident of have some Jedi blunder into them at a vulnerable point. It ensures that the Sith will do as they always do...destroy themselves. And in such a way that they will NOT be able to recover.

The PT only worked because the existing system was already terminally rotten and corrupt, with the Jedi becoming nothing more than the Senate's attack dogs, conscripted and trained from birth to enforce the hegemony of the political elite, justice be hung. (Just ask Shmi) Palpatine turns out to be a clever politician, taking full advantage of every rotten timber in the building to bring it down on the Republic and Jedi, but...well, now what? He never gets a good answer to that aside from trying to live forever ala Vitiate, and it doesn't work...probably because the knowledge was lost somewhere amid all the backstabbing.

Takes 4000 years, but Sith implode in a way where it's very unlikely to get back up.

1

u/Bearjupiter Oct 02 '22

It’s a very anticlimactic rule - I’m hoping that the Acolyte pre-dates the Ro2

2

u/Stonecutter_12-83 Oct 02 '22

I don't think so because from what I've seen it takes place 50 years before ep1

1

u/3choplex Oct 02 '22

Yeah, I like Bane but the whole idea made no sense.

1

u/ar243 Oct 02 '22

To be fair, it only failed because of some ridiculous Hollywood magic and plot armor (the will of the force, for instance).

But if star wars was realistic it wouldn't be any fun, so there's no harm in any of that

1

u/Material-Cut2522 Oct 02 '22

Are the sith gone? In the TROS Dictionary the dyad is called 'prophesized'. A sith prophecy, since the dyad was a sith doctrine.

Just like the PT jedi -some of them anyway- believed in an anti-sith prophecy (Obi-Wan's 'you were supposed to destroy the sith[...]!'), then maybe the dyad prophecy was supposed to destroy...the Man In The High Castle of Exegol.

A sith anti-sith prophecy, which makes sense since the sith are always fighting each other. Those wayfinders (only two were made) pointed the way to that throne. In that case, Palpatine's rise would have been part of that prophecy. As he himself implied, that throne was his by birth. Maybe his was an ancient bloodline.

Not so far from the pre-Disney Sith'ari thing. He/she was supposed to destroy...the sith.

In this case, maybe there were other sith around during TROS, and they won: Palpatine was destroyed. The jedi weren't, of course.

1

u/Osxachre Oct 02 '22

The Rule of Two fails to deal with the fact that Force sensitive beings will continue to be born, both dark and light side. How would they be dealt with? What about the possibility of disease or accident killing both of them?

1

u/jonascarrynthewheel Oct 02 '22

Well IMO the jedi are a failed idea!!!!

1

u/CaphineMashine Oct 02 '22

Damn you're telling me the cult of homicidal maniacs might have some bad ideas?

1

u/Moose_Hooves Oct 02 '22

Rule of 2 limited the star wars universe… SO MUCH.

Like yeah, it’s cool that the duel if the fates was the first duel between jedi and syth in centuries.

But how cool would it be if sith were as prevelant as jedi? I think it’d be cool if ALL force sensetive beings become sith if they are not trained by a jedi to limit their passion and emotion. It would make a lot of sense. If you have power and no guidance, lead around by your desires and emotions, you will become an evil person.

But instead the sith is just old man Palpatine and whoever his current apprentice is. Which is so lame.

1

u/tennbo Oct 03 '22

Everyone craps on Bane for instituting the Rule of 2, but I honestly think it’s a smart idea. Sith naturally want power and will do anything to get it. Having an army of Sith like the army of Jedi wouldn’t work because Sith will try to backstab their superiors and a Sith army would implode. The only way for the Sith to survive long term is the Rule of 2.

1

u/HOOCHIE_MAMA_ Oct 03 '22

Greed my friend……. Greed….

1

u/Iamnotapotate Oct 03 '22

The rule of two always made more sense to me as an axiom of the Jedi about the sith - rather than a sith edict. Essentially saying that when sith are involved the problem is always bigger than it seems. There's always someone pulling the strings somewhere, and the sith you're dealing with currently is probably not the root cause of the problem.

1

u/jimmy__jazz Oct 03 '22

The Rule of 2 would have worked had Palpatine not abandoned it. If he had an apprentice who became stronger and killed him it would have made the Sith stronger.

1

u/SirMarglar Oct 03 '22

Star Wars: Where the mighty Galactic Empire rules for...20 years. Nothing makes sense.

1

u/ResponsibleNose5978 Oct 28 '22

Technically it had ruled for longer if you count the years it was a republic. Palpatine had also been ruling as chancellor for a long time before becoming emperor.

1

u/SimplyTheJester Oct 03 '22
  • Qui Gon: Dead
  • Mace: Dead
  • OB1: Dead
  • Yoda: Dead
  • Anakin: Dead
  • Luke: Dead
  • Leia: Dead
  • Ben Solo: Dead
  • Rey: Possessed by Palpatine
  • Palpatine: Somehow he survived and lasted all 9 movies

I'd say it worked out quite well for Palpatine

1

u/ResponsibleNose5978 Oct 28 '22

But Rey wasn’t possessed. She and Ben put an end to him.

1

u/National_Egg_9044 Oct 03 '22

Thats what made the cade skywalker storyline so dope

1

u/Endgam Oct 03 '22

Play the Sith class stories on SWTOR and get back to me on how well having more than two Sith around goes over for the Sith.

1

u/ResponsibleNose5978 Oct 28 '22

The QOL for sith apprentices and below is just not it.