r/WitchesVsPatriarchy 9d ago Wholesome 1 Silver 5 All-Seeing Upvote 1 Take My Energy 1 Helpful 2

let women choose what they do with their hair! Burn the Patriarchy

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48.5k Upvotes

u/Neon_Green_Unicow Indigenous Eclectic Witch ♀♂️☉⚧ 8d ago

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Thank you for understanding, and blessed be. ✨

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u/iiwfi 8d ago Silver Gold Helpful Take My Energy

Wanting to be left the fuck alone is a universal human desire.

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u/jstiegle 8d ago

As long as the person isn't hurting or taking advantage of anyone I don't see why folks give such a shit about what other people are doing.

Baffles me.

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u/Morita_Crowley 8d ago

The principal of harm. If you are in a political philosophy class the question is what you define as harm.

There is a rather infamous ad from a few years ago where some Rabbi blamed the holocaust on Jewish women not being modest enough. Some people truly believe that letting a woman have a choice is endangering the fabric of society itself.

Which is, yeah? So? Society would benefit from being shaken up a bit

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u/Fudgiehead 8d ago

Wow the victim blaming. Let's not blame the literal attackers and let's blame wOmeN's mOdeSTy

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u/InfinitelyThirsting 8d ago

That's the biggest flaw in believing in a supreme god, though. If everything is that god's will, why would he choose to have something so horrible happen, except as punishment? Baked in misogyny means you gotta blame the women, somehow.

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u/Lucifang 8d ago

Don’t forget that periods are god’s punishment too

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u/severeOCDsuburbgirl Resting Witch Face 8d ago

Jokes on you I use science to defeat it (largely)

Ty birth control. Fuck the fact that due to stuff including trying to please the catholic church most people don't know you don't really need to take a week off on placebo.

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u/AntheaBrainhooke 8d ago

In Evangelicals' case it's their claim their god has A Plan and that women being free and happy is going against that plan or something.

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u/utterlynuts 4d ago

The best I can figure is that women (because of Eve) alone are blamed by God for that apple thing and men are not because they are too clueless to think for themselves (because Eve talked Adam into eating the apple too).

Judeo-Christian theology seems to have based an entire social structure around women being the cause of everything so don't let them be in charge of stuff including their own bodies.

So, Adam was clueless and couldn't master the critical thinking skills necessary to decide for himself whether eating the apple was wise, and all women must suffer for it.

Athough, wasn't Adam made in God's image? So...he just looks like him then?

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u/Easy-Concentrate2636 8d ago

Basis of controlling moves around the world. Control body and movement.

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u/Affectionate_Lie9308 8d ago

Gotta keep othered people othered.

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u/PrincessNakeyDance 8d ago

It’s essential to strip the right of autonomy with their own bodies if you want to control, oppress, abuse. Doesn’t matter what you take away as long as it involves their identity and sense of self and makes them feel helpless.

——

I mean I completely agree. Baffles me to no end. There’s literally no gain from my perspective. But that’s because we are not abusive.

What really needs to happen is that the groups/societies clearly see who is abusing them and how they are being abused. But unfortunately it gets wrapped up and hidden in culture and religion. Things that you “must never disobey.”

Even the people who “benefit” passively, suffer overall.

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u/AntheaBrainhooke 8d ago

An it harm none, do what thou wilt.

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u/spiritedawayfox Literary Witch ♀♂️☉⚧ 8d ago

Shave it all off, style it, color it, cut it short, keep it long, cut it different, cut it cute, shave designs into it, put it up, keep it down, braid it, curl it, cover it up, keep it out... Etc etc...

All people should have the right to decide what to do with their hair!

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u/DogyDays Baby Witch ☉ (They/Them) 8d ago Heartwarming

Getting my hair mostly shaved tonight. I have trichotillomania and while I just wanna let it start growing on top, it’s insanely uneven. I’m almost contemplating going full buzzcut again purely for solidarity though, besides I’ll look cool for school photos.

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u/RavenTruz 8d ago edited 7d ago

I did this once as a pagan rite to thank Goddess for my healthy baby- and all kinds of people started zig heiling me, and bus drivers would close the door before I got on, and cashiers “wouldn’t” see me. It was very illuminating.

I wanted to scream “I ain’t a Nazi, im a witch“🧙‍♀️ but I didn’t think that would go over that well

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u/61114311536123511 8d ago

jesus christ. doin a sieg heil in germany in public would get you put in jail

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u/RavenTruz 8d ago

This was Northern California. I couldn’t believe it. 🤦🏼‍♀️

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u/spiritedawayfox Literary Witch ♀♂️☉⚧ 8d ago

Dude my friend buzzed his hair off cuz of dysphoria... If someone ever tried to heil us in public they'd get a fucking uppercut to the chin... That's beyond horrible

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u/DogyDays Baby Witch ☉ (They/Them) 7d ago

bruh what???? California too??? Here in Kansas people are just like "cool, neat", or even go "damn that actually looks great on you" (i have to agree, it does look pretty nice with my facial structure). To be fair Kansas is the state of cowpunk and an absurd amount of butch lesbians so the style is pretty normal here by default lmao

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u/APileOfLooseDogs 8d ago

Dang, I’ve had a buzz cut before, but I never had anyone think I was a neonazi! Well, at least as far as I know—maybe they thought it, but they never tried to signal/say anything. I just wanted an androgynous haircut that I could do by myself.

I definitely did get some looks, but usually they were looks of “I’m trying to figure out if you chose that haircut on purpose,” “aw, you poor chemo patient” (I wasn’t), or occasionally “that’s not the voice I expected to come out of that person.” I enjoyed getting that last one.

I did also get ignored by strangers a bit more, but I’m the kind of person who prefers that.

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u/DogyDays Baby Witch ☉ (They/Them) 7d ago

im way too gay for people to think im a neo-nazi, at least I'm pretty sure? I'm also vocal about being autistic and specifically use "aspergers" for myself because I always have, and to spite that piece of shit and make him endlessly roll in his grave, so I'm very much extremely anti-nazism. I still dont know how nazis still exist tbh

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u/Chaos_Cat-007 Eclectic Witch ♀ With An Irish Flair 8d ago

I desperately need to get mine re-colored and cut. I'd do them myself but my arthritic arms and shoulders won't let me do that any longer. I used to have mine shaved almost bald on the sides with the rest long and I miss it. I had a buzzcut in high school and while I thought it looked good, it was COLD AS FUCK in the winter!

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u/Sirusi Science Witch ♀♂️☉⚧ 8d ago

Ah, but with a buzz cut you can wear a nice thick warm hat and not worry about hat hair :P

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u/PM-me-favorite-song 8d ago

I had it, too, and it still flares up every now and then. Cutting it short helps.

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u/severeOCDsuburbgirl Resting Witch Face 8d ago

I don't have trichtillomania but I do know well what compulsive behaviours are like as someone with severe contamination OCD. I've been cutting my hair short since my first hospitalization due to my mental health. It's a lot less hair to worry about dirtying and cleaning that way and my hair could tangle easily before so it's nice to never worry about that. Don't even use shampoo sometimes.

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u/phyllophyllum 8d ago

I want it long, straight, curly, fuzzy

Snaggy, shaggy, ratsy, matsy

Oily, greasy, fleecy

Shining, gleaming, streaming

Flaxen, waxen

Knotted, polka-dotted

Twisted, beaded, braided

Powdered, flowered, and confettied

Bangled, tangled, spangled, and spaghettied!

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u/spiritedawayfox Literary Witch ♀♂️☉⚧ 8d ago

Hell yeah, sister! ⚡🔥

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u/adrianmakedonski 8d ago

Technologic.

Technologic.

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u/Inevitable_Surprise4 8d ago

Bop it! Twist it! Flick it! Lol. Sorry it just reminded me of that old bop it game.

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u/Bethw2112 9d ago

How about everyone gets to choose what they do with their life and body and everyone else minds their own damn life.

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u/[deleted] 8d ago

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u/CHClClCl 8d ago

The issues that the left disagrees on are actual political issues. The issues the right calls politics are just human rights.

I have no problem at all arguing politics when we're arguing about whether the budget increase should go to the library or police. Or when we're trying to change zoning laws. Or when we're discussing whether or not to tear down a park to build a highway. Sure I'm passionate about all those things, but they are politics and I know people disagree.

THE RIGHT TO BODILY AUTONOMY IS NOT POLITICS THOUGH.

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u/Timebomb90 8d ago

Actually this has been what has impressed me about “the right”.. that they can all have such wildly different ideas that sometimes contradict each other and still consider themselves one unified group and work towards the same goal. I have been confused for a while about this! It was also very obvious during the corona period when normal people started to spread “love” and conspiracy theories and call everyone else sheep even though the group itself didn’t all agree on which conspiracy was the real one. They didn’t seem to mind or consider this at all.

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u/Nixavee 8d ago

That's more libertarian than conservative, conservatism in general leans more socially authoritarian

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u/HumpaDaBear 8d ago

But it seems men are scared to let women be an equal. It’s happened for eons.

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u/PerpetuallyLurking 8d ago

I’m with glitter_berries on this. Yes, with a caveat on age. My first thoughts go to my kid, and while I generally trust her to make good choices, she’s only 13 and I certainly don’t expect every decision to be a great one and I expect to have to talk her down from some of the stupider choices she may make in the next few years. She IS “my life.” I do kinda have to mind her life and choices, legally for the next 5 years for sure, as a part of minding my own.

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u/xdragonteethstory Sapphic Witch ♀ 8d ago

There's a balance when its a kid/teen, even in young adulthood its still good to give them a safety net with consequences in place.

Some things you need to warn them ahead of the fuckup (like dont touch the stove bc its fucking HOT, use protection bc im not being a grandparent in my 40s, etc), sometimes they need to find and do the fuckup on their own (dumb but not life fucked up forever now level stuff), and sometimes you can just advise and give them freedom to find the consequences on their own (like friendships or relationships or finishing that vodka bottle when they're already too drunk)

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u/PerpetuallyLurking 8d ago

Oh definitely! The hot stove is the best example. Telling them it’s hot only works up to a point. Then they need to determine for themselves that “OW! Shit! Why did you let me do that?!?” LOL

All I can really do is be there for the fallout, when the inevitable bad decisions get made! Try to keep it contained to the smaller decisions and hope she uses the better judgement she learned from it for the big decisions.

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u/OpheliaRainGalaxy 8d ago

Can confirm that folks need the practice of smaller decisions before getting tossed into the adult world to make big decisions. It's not a skill that should be put off until 18 or 21 or whatever.

I wasn't supposed to make any decisions for myself during childhood, hardly allowed to choose clothes out of the closet on my own, only allowed to be friends with pre-approved girls, scolded for not hiding my emotions, never allowed to say No to an adult, all that controlling jazz. So when I went away to college, I was pretty well programmed to do as anyone older than me said, and I had very little understanding of the idea that I could say No to a "respected elder."

So when a professor put his hand on my thigh under the table while complimenting me, it didn't remotely occur to me to decide to shriek like a banshee to get the attention of the rest of the class, or report him. The old programming kicked in and I just "told an adult." Talked to my boss about it, found out that professor is known for being a creep, and avoided him like plague while finishing my degree. Whenever I had to take a class from him, I'd make sure to sign up with a guy-friend, because all that childhood training said that while saying No and "making a scene" is bad, hiding behind a guy was "appropriate."

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u/Chaos_Cat-007 Eclectic Witch ♀ With An Irish Flair 8d ago

I've read a few studies that say what us smart people have known forever---kids need to mess up once in awhile. Yeah, parents or guardians need to keep them from getting really hurt [like the stove example] but some things you just have to let them experience.

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u/xdragonteethstory Sapphic Witch ♀ 7d ago

Exactly :) sheltered kids make adults with no idea how to fix problems, or how to balance the "bad" habits out with good coping mechanisms.

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u/MariContrary 8d ago

I feel you there. Kiddo is 13, and left to her own devices, she'd make some solid decisions for sure. She'd also make some piss poor ones, because she doesn't have the life experience to draw from. I mean, her brain broke a little bit recently because although she's known that summer break doesn't exist for working adults, it just finally clicked that the end of her 3 month breaks is approaching. It's not close, but she can actually see that future. It's finally clicked that she should probably learn how to make a functional meal for herself, because no one is going to be providing meals for her once she's out of the college dorms and off the meal plan. She has known both of those things for a long time. But there's a difference in knowing things happen "when you're an adult" and actually seeing yourself as that future adult.

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u/tosstosstosstossssss 8d ago

Definitely, but parenting a teenager is like “It’s cold, please bring a sweater/your jacket” and “please don’t pierce your ears at home, I will bring you somewhere that is clean and safe to have it done properly” and “I will go with you and pay for your tattoo once you’re 18 or have been wanting the same design for a year, both because I remember being a teenager who wanted tattoos (to be fair I have some too) and don’t want you risking hepatitis”

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u/OpheliaRainGalaxy 8d ago

It's so stressful, just giving them the information, letting them make their own decisions, and then waiting to see how it goes.

My older stepson was still asking for my permission for things up until his early 20s. I'd just say "You're an adult, so I'm not going to tell you what to do, but here's my opinion and here's a list of possible ways this could go wrong that you'll want to keep in mind and plan ahead for."

I think the worst was when he decided to attend a party in next-state-over with friends. Our family had no vehicle and was flat broke at the time, so if he'd gotten left behind by the group or gotten into other trouble, he would've been pretty much on his own.

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u/LoveAndProse Literary Witch ♂️ 8d ago

I think that has less to do with age and more to do with a parent child relationship.

they're minors, they inherently have a different set of rights as the parents supercede theirs.

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u/WhatUpMahKnitta 8d ago

And as the parent, you know which freedoms and decisions your individual kids can handle, and which ones you as the parent need to be in control of for a little longer.

Mine are only 6 and 3, so I am currently controlling a lot of their decisions, or giving very limited parameters. For example the 6 year old can be trusted to choose, and make, her own lunch. Mr 3 would choose to eat an entire bag of pepperoni for lunch if I let him, so I don't.

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u/Chaos_Cat-007 Eclectic Witch ♀ With An Irish Flair 8d ago

I like your 3 year old's idea for lunch! Or better yet, a grilled cheese sandwich with lots of pepperoni inside. MMMMM....

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u/LoveAndProse Literary Witch ♂️ 8d ago

exactly :) and I hope children at an appropriate age can have religious autonomy, and the choices that come with it, like choosing to cover one's hair or not.

edit: I also bring up parent child relationship as opposed to age for the point of emancipation.

my friend at 16 did not have an environment conducive to their growth. they had held a job since 14 and emancipated, therefore granting themselves full autonomy of their choices as a minor.

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u/YourStonedNeighbor 8d ago edited 8d ago

Is there anywhere in this world where men don’t try to control women in some way, shape, or form? Maybe that’s the secret of Antarctica

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u/lemontea_theenemy 8d ago

Apparently sexual harassment and assault is rampant in remote outposts in Antarctica :(

We’re not even safe in the Penguin Province 😭

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u/CutieL 🏳️‍⚧️ Sapphic Witch ♀ Vegan Magic 🌱 8d ago

Away out of our Solar System then

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u/I-am-a-me 8d ago

Let's go start our own planet Amazonia

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u/CutieL 🏳️‍⚧️ Sapphic Witch ♀ Vegan Magic 🌱 8d ago

We're needing a replacement for the Amazon anyway

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u/Catrionathecat 8d ago

Well I'm utterly disappointed in life now. I was disappointed before, but now I'm just a grumpy butthead

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u/lemontea_theenemy 8d ago

https://www.scarymommy.com/entertainment/teacher-on-leave-middle-school-boys-creep-pedo-database

If it makes you feel better here’s a story about some young boys helping to catch a school predator! I know things are shit :( but I genuinely believe that the world is getting better for women each and every year. Even if we aren’t winning politically, we are still winning ideologically. With each generation the world will get better ❤️‍🩹

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u/paratha_aur_chutney Geek Witch ♀♂️☉⚧ 8d ago edited 7d ago

Is there

anywhere

in this world where men don’t try to control women in some way, shape, or form? Maybe that’s the secret of Antarctica

i used to think so too, hence thought - hmm, going to research in antarctica wouldnt be so bad if it means i will be free and left the fuck alone to do whatever research i was doing, no patriarchal society to bind me to stupid rules and worries about protecting myself,

TURNS OUT -- sexual harassment of women researchers by mostly their male professors / whoever tf is their boss is very rampant and because it takes years of their lives to go out to antarctica to do their research, a lot of female researchers do not report their sexual assaults because it will mean they will have to leave antarctica and their research immediately till the probe is conducted , which as we all know, aint fast.

https://www.npr.org/2022/09/01/1120518369/antarctica-sexual-harassment-assault-nsf-report

https://www.science.org/content/article/disturbing-allegations-sexual-harassment-antarctica-leveled-noted-scientist

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u/mycatiscalledFrodo 8d ago

There is one village in Kenya for raped and abused women. No men are allowed (children are fine though) but some of the women do see men outside, they just aren't allowed inside. So they have children but no marriages and no men, they are in control of everything

https://www.theguardian.com/global-development/2015/aug/16/village-where-men-are-banned-womens-rights-kenya

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u/Conscious-Charity915 8d ago

Maybe Iceland?

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u/Aelirenn 8d ago

Murder is rare in Iceland but unfortunately one of the most brutal cases is...you guessed it... a murder of a young woman by a guy who picked her up when she was walking home after night out https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_of_Birna_Brj%C3%A1nsd%C3%B3ttir?wprov=sfla1 not even Iceland is free of this kind of bullshit.

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u/BrainsAdmirer 8d ago

All this is sadly true, and even in the USA there are states that are making it a crime to have a miscarriage, and some are now trying to repeal the vote for women. Men all over the world are afraid that women are fighting to be treated fairly, as a gender equally important, and could be argued MORE important than men. A society that has opposed women is a society doomed to fail.

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u/One_Wheel_Drive 8d ago

That's already the case in El Salvador. People who have had miscarriages have been sentenced to decades in prison because they had miscarriages!

All the more reason for everyone who can to make sure they vote.

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u/Young_Former 8d ago

That is terrifying. I think the statistic is at least 1 in 4 women experience a miscarriage in their lifetime. So all those women should go to jail because their body determines the fetus isn’t viable and rejects it?? Wow.

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u/shadow1515 8d ago

The majority of all fertilization events (some estimates are as high as 75%) do not result in a successful delivery. Most self-terminate before pregnancy is even suspected/known. The simple fact is, a miscarriage at 1 week or 15 weeks is not that different and pretending it is is fucking stupid.

My wife has had two miscarriages in a row because her body just holds onto every fetus no matter what (they both had severe congenital issues and really shouldn't have survived long enough for us to know about, but instead held on for over 10 weeks). In certain states, ironically, having a super-nurturing womb would be a potential crime. People are idiots.

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u/DogyDays Baby Witch ☉ (They/Them) 8d ago

My mom had two miscarriages before having me. I cannot fucking imagine someone ARRESTING HER for some shit she couldn’t control.

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u/xdragonteethstory Sapphic Witch ♀ 8d ago

A lot of people can have a miscarriage and not even know they were pregnant till they're having the miscarriage

Id be petrified to go to my dr if anything abnormal happened with my period, in case they threw me in prison when i didn't even know!

Fuck what they're trying to do with that shit.

Im in the UK and we get 24 weeks to have an induced abortion. If that changes im moving to a different country. Fuck that noise. I already take a cheap preg test every month AND im on birth control because im so afraid of getting pregnant. I cant imagine the fear if i lived where an abortion wasn't available.

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u/Thorhees 8d ago

I live in Texas, and I have endometriosis. Even if I wanted to get pregnant and have children, I feel like it's something I absolutely cannot do because the laws of my state make it difficult for doctors in reproductive care to do what's best for the patient if something goes wrong in the pregnancy. My condition makes pregnancy more risky and more likely to fail. I could go to jail for something entirely out of my control.

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u/shadow1515 8d ago

My heart breaks for the surely thousands (if not hundreds of thousands) of women in your situation. In a roundabout way this is basically a light genocide, by severely disincentivizing birth among a certain group (ie, non-fundamental extremists) of people. And I say that as somone who fervently believes in using words carefully so they don't lose meaning by dilution. And I'll say it again: these kinds of laws are very close to actual genocide.

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u/ususetq 8d ago

So all those women should go to jail because their body determines the fetus isn’t viable and rejects it?? Wow.

No, no. Of course not. Only the BIPOC, queer, liberal and single ones. The ones who listen to their husbands and vote GOP can enjoy all their freedoms...

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u/Clean_Link_Bot 8d ago

beep boop! the linked website is: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/may/10/el-salvador-woman-sentenced-prison-after-miscarriage

Title: El Salvador: woman sentenced to 30 years in prison for homicide after miscarriage

Page is safe to access (Google Safe Browsing)


###### I am a friendly bot. I show the URL and name of linked pages and check them so that mobile users know what they click on!

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u/HairTop23 8d ago

Good bot

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u/yukibunny 8d ago

I know some people from El Salvador who actually got asylum in the United States because they had a miscarriage and were afraid they would potentially be locked up for life for having a miscarriage.

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u/Skaid 8d ago

One woman in El Salvador was locked up for 10 years due to a miscarriage (of a child she wanted) She literally woke up in the hospital cuffed to the bed. She only got out after 10 years because of pressure from Amnesty and other organizations. She was never free of the charges but was let out on "good behavior" and as she left they said they hoped she had learned her lesson and wouldn't do it again. Fucking sickening.

Another girl miscarried after having getting pregnant from having been gang raped by her own brother and his friends. She miscarried on a toilet, and a neighbor woman snitched on her so she was arrested.

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u/h4ppy60lucky 8d ago edited 8d ago

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u/Chaos_Cat-007 Eclectic Witch ♀ With An Irish Flair 8d ago

So why hasn't Amnesty spoken up here in the States? I might have missed it, so I apologize.

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u/swampgirlsummer 8d ago edited 8d ago

How?! And why?!? A miscarriage is not something the person with the uterus chooses to do! It is literally spontaneous abortion, that’s why it’s called that!

I’m sorry, I’m not questioning you. I am just so confused and distressed by this bullshit. I don’t understand it and I am so scared for the future.

ETA: It occurred to me that I am using language in a fashion that is not applicable to all. For clarification when I say ‘miscarriage’ I am referring to a spontaneous abortion, whether desired or not.

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u/AcidRose27 8d ago

spontaneous abortion,

See that second word? Because your body is aborting it you must have done something wrong to cause it, right? (Well, no, you and I know that's not the case. Reading between the lines it sure seems to be more about control than any claim of love of life.)

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u/swampgirlsummer 8d ago edited 8d ago

Sadly I believe you are completely correct that this is the reasoning some folks use. I have never experienced a miscarriage but I watched my mother grieve hers. I was amazed by the women who came forward to share their own miscarriage experiences with her to offer comfort. It’s such a hush hush topic that affects so many.

Tangentially related: I am somewhat morbidly fascinated by the ways women have historically been held accountable for uncontrollable bodily functions (or lack thereof). It brings to mind Henry VII and the succession of women who were all brilliant and capable in their own right that he blamed for the lack of a male heir. It would seem the common denominator there is Henry, but no, it must be the woman’s fault!

ETA: It occurred to me that I am using language in a fashion that is not applicable to all. For clarification when I say ‘miscarriage’ I am referring to a spontaneous abortion, whether desired or not.

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u/Mythical_Zebracorn 8d ago

The laws in some red states could potentially/ are so strict that every miscarriage could be investigated as first degree murder, because politicians refuse to listen to people with medical degrees.

If you have endo and/or PCOS your miscarriage rate is higher (approx. 50%). The standard miscarriage rate is about 25% (iirc). If every miscarriage is investigated as murder, then that’s a lot of women in jail because it’s impossible to prove you didnt do something

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u/ClimateCare7676 8d ago

Yes. And it's horrifying and vomit inducing how misogynistic bigots would go the completely opposite ways to oppress women under the same excuse. Women who want to wear hijab are forced to remove it under the threat of violence, women who don't want to wear it - are forced into putting it on. Women who need and want abortions are banned from them, ethnic minority and marginalized women who want to have children are forcefully sterilised, forced into abortions or have their children taken away. Women who want to have active sex life are shamed, humiliated and mocked, women who don't - are coerced, shamed for being a "prude" pressured and raped. There is no real consistent ideology that underpins this violence, just pure misogyny, the hatred that uses all instruments out there to push all women down.

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u/neruaL555 8d ago

Really well said. Thank you for summing up exactly what I am thinking. We are living in a world now and have been, where all women are treated as less than men. It’s pure bull shit and makes me completely sick. We need to rise up and support one another, we’re all in this together. I support my sisters on this planet!

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u/lycosa13 8d ago

Men all over the world are afraid that women are fighting to be treated fairly, as a gender equally important, and could be argued MORE important than men.

"When you're accustomed to privilege, equality feels like oppression."

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u/MiciaRokiri 8d ago

Wait, do you have any sources on the right-to-vote thing? I hadn't heard of that outside of a few nutcases

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u/complitstudent 8d ago

Which states are trying to repeal women voting? I did a couple searches on it and couldn’t find anything, are states really trying to do that? (Not that I don’t believe you, I do, I’m just curious/worried!)

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u/RunWild3840 8d ago

Ugh, and women in the US are fighting for the right to choose what to do with our uteruses. I wish these crazy ass men would leave us tf alone! I wish there was a way that women could all band together and put an end to this nonsense so we can just go about living our lives.

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u/bugaloo2u2 8d ago

Just leave people alone, ffs. Stay in your own lane.

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u/yukibunny 8d ago

In the United States were all so fighting for the right to choice because everywhere in the world everyone wants to tell women what we can and can't do with our body it's like people think we don't have a right or the ability to choose for ourselves; men must do it for us because women are still seen as children by many in the world.

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u/izumi1262 8d ago edited 8d ago

The world’s women are looking for body autonomy. Leave our hair, clothes, reproductive organs ALONE. Edit: spelling.

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u/nikkitgirl 8d ago

I know an American woman who told me how she didn’t wear one shortly after immigrating here from Egypt as a teenager, but later decided to start after facing racism and islamophobia. I’ve also known an atheist woman who was a refugee from Iran for a variety of reasons. Both of these women are among the kindest people I’ve ever met.

So many women’s bodies and choices are made into political statements against their wills. I don’t care if Islam is good or bad, it shouldn’t be forced on anyone, especially any interpretation of it, and nobody should be punished for believing in it unless they start hurting others because of it. If your stance on religion or any in particular is causing you to have a problem with how women choose to dress, that’s the real problem. If you enforce it into law you’re an asshole.

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u/k9moonmoon 8d ago

Also lots of other religions require hair coverings. Nuns wear them. Many orthodox jews cover their hair.

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u/nikkitgirl 8d ago

Yeah I remember hijab laws in France causing issues with nuns a while back

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u/soaring_potato Science Witch ♀ 8d ago

There is a difference between it just being something people do. And murdering women that don't, because they don't. Or do it "incorrectly" and have hair fallen out.

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u/Shelala85 8d ago

Where I live in Canada it is not unusual to see women who practice Christian veiling.

I also know one person, that lives in a different part of Canada, who will whine whenever she sees a veiled Muslim woman but says nothing when she sees a veiled Christian.

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u/smurgleburf 8d ago

and what do all those religions have in common? they view women as lesser human beings who need to be subordinate to men.

patriarchal oppression is cool as long as it’s religious though ig.

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u/Dobinci 8d ago

The end of the system opressing women has begun! Could not be more proud of women nowadays!

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u/sunnydaysahead2022 8d ago

Sorta like women in the US, too.

We just want control of our own bodies.

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u/Thorhees 8d ago

Freedom is essential to living a meaningful, fulfilling life. Removing someone's choice, whether they agree with the decisions made for them or not, will always be a hinderance to a person's right to exist as they choose.

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u/kayleeelizabeth 8d ago

Back when France was debating banning the hajib, I got yelled at quite a bit because I didn’t support the ban. I didn’t see how forcing a woman to not wear something was any better than forcing them to wear something.

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u/superprawnjustice 8d ago

r/topfreememes has a post on that, apparently France is having issues with topless women AND women in burkinis. It's ridiculous. Leave us alone. Stop using our bodies against us.

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u/SanjiSasuke 8d ago

Some people get fervently defensive of France's weird anti-religious attitude. At least they're nowhere near as bad about it as China, though.

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u/silverjudge 8d ago

"WoMeN aRe sO ConFusINg" bro just let them choose what they want to do

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u/silveryfeather208 8d ago

women can never catch a break. Too 'girly' and you are a slut or some crazy person. Too boyish and its like how dare you??? I don't get it

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u/adiosfelicia2 8d ago

American women are fighting for the right to choose, too. To have control over our own bodies and futures.

I can't believe we've regressed this far. {sigh}

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u/shadow1515 8d ago

For fuckin' real. The existence of hijabs isn't the problem, it's anyone except who is wearing it giving a fuck about it.

Compare to a relatively progressive country like Jordan. Something like 95% of the population are Muslim, but some women wear hijabs and some wear niqabs and some let their hair flow free and they all work and interact together just fine because no one gives a fuck about how someone else practices their religion (or doesn't).

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u/soaring_potato Science Witch ♀ 8d ago

I mean. I think it is fair to care about the women being murdered for not wearing one. Even if you don't wear a hijab and are not at risk of being murdered over it.

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u/shadow1515 8d ago

Well yes, but the fact hijabs exist isn't the problem there, it's the backwards patriarchal extremists who let's be honest would find a different reason to murder women anyway.

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u/snowinsummer00 Science Witch ♀ 8d ago

Speak for yourself. I'm done fighting to be "heard". I'm fighting for my rights as a human. We are dehumanized everyday by men. Morality has no place in this fight.

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u/FallenG0ddess 8d ago Silver

People love this take that "foreign" women or women in "uncivilized" countries don't know what's good for them and only want or don't want head coverings because of what a man has brainwashed them to think.

The lack of intersectional feminism and downright racism here is pretty disheartening.

Y'all should fucking know better.

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u/BrideOfFirkenstein 8d ago Silver Take My Energy

To be fair, I think of any religious upbringing as brainwashing.

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u/MariContrary 8d ago

Agreed, with caveats. In the case of Iran right now, many women are actively stating that they do NOT want to cover their hair, but the alternative is to be beaten or worse. If someone chooses to cover their hair, I have no issue with that. As long as people legitimately have a choice, I don't care what they do with their own body. I don't care if it's for fashion, faith or any other reason. But as it stands right now, it's the same as someone holding a gun to your head, asking for your wallet and claiming you gave it to them willingly.

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u/Shelala85 8d ago

Let us return, finally, to my title, "Do Muslim Women Need Saving?" The discussion of culture, veiling, and how one can navigate the shoals of cultural difference should put Laura Bush's self-congratulation about the rejoicing of Afghan women liberated by American troops in a different light, It is deeply problematic to construct the Afghan woman as someone in need of saving, When you save someone, you imply that you are saving her from something, You are also saving her to something, What violences are entailed in this transformation, and what presumptions are being made about the superiority of that to which you are saving her? Projects of saving other women depend on and reinforce a sense of superiority by Westerners, a form of arrogance that deserves to be challenged.

Leila Abu-Lughod Do Muslim Women Really need Saving, 2002

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u/soaring_potato Science Witch ♀ 8d ago

I don't think it is racist or lacks intersectionality to think it is horrible that women are murdered over there for not wearing one. As it is oppression. Yeah not my culture. Not my religion. But sometimes cultures are really fucking oppressive.

The woman that got murdered over it probably didn't care enough about her hair, to think she should be murdered for a few showing hair strands. And the women (and some men) there are actively speaking out against it.

I am also not from the states. Yet I also think it is terrible what is happening over there in regards to reproductive rights. Yes our cultures are more similar, but not the same.

I don't care if someone genuinely wants to wear one. I have friends that do. At some points in my retail job I was the only one without one! But that's if they want to. If they are forced, that's different. Some of my Muslim friends literally had to talk to their parents, with their uncle, about doing a program in a different uni, that's 2.5 hours away (by train. 1.5 by car). Forget about getting a room there, or staying for a single night for an exam with a female friend in a all female student house. I think that shit is oppressive as well. Because her uncle had to convince her dad that her education was important enough to let her take the train to another city. (Only convinced because wouldn't take the train alone. But with another Muslim girl. And another non Muslim girl.) Yeah that's kinda fucked up as well. Not murder levels tho. And she hated that too.

Because honestly. Fuck cultures that do that shit. Just because something is a culture, doesn't mean it is right. And just because it is not your own, doesn't mean you should ignore it.

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u/Skaid 8d ago

and only want or don't want head coverings because of what a man has brainwashed them to think.

Just because this isn't always the case, it doesn't mean it's NEVER the case.

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u/philalethia 9d ago

*bodies

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u/Shelala85 8d ago

Comparing the experiences of women living in a Muslim majority country like Iran to a Muslim woman living in India is like comparing apples and oranges. Muslim women are not a monolith. Due to differing factors they will often experience differing oppressions. The experiences of a woman in a Muslim majority country should not be used to deny differing experiences of a Muslim woman in a Muslim minority country and vice versa.

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u/larimari ✨ Charmed & Charming ✨ 9d ago

Many of these women in India will now not be able/allowed to go to school.

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u/daniellefore 8d ago

I’ve seen a lot of takes that equate hijab with oppression and from a western perspective I’ll admit that I used to think this until I talked to hijabi women and was educated. I think as people outside of the culture and outside of the conversation we need to remember our role is to listen and not decide what is best for all women from our limited perspective; this would make us no different from the oppressor. The OP is absolutely right that the issue is not about whether hijab itself is good or bad, but about the right to self determination.

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u/XMindy 8d ago edited 8d ago Silver

Respectfully, I disagree. While islamophobie certainly exists in the west and needs to be addressed there is absolutely a place for westerners to show solidarity with women in countries like Iran, where a hijab is unequivocally a tool of oppression and not in any form a choice. It is only about control and misogyny. I’m not a Muslim but lived for a bit in a Muslim country and there was and is a lot of frustration against westerners who ignorantly support Islamist regimes in the name of religious tolerance. Especially since that tolerance is used by Islamist regimes in their propaganda. This is not a case is islamophobia or discrimination against those who wear hijab. This is a case of a woman being murdered by theocratic morality police for not being modest. The Iranian government should be shamed and ostracized for their behavior by everyone, including westerners who have a disproportionately amplified voice.

Edit to clarify; not “a lot” of frustration in the general population, which was extremely conservative and religious and yes made life as a woman complicated on the basis of sex because of the religion specifically. There was frustration in my liberal(ish) group of friends which included Muslims and closeted atheists, and in the social circles which I continue to participate in.

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u/Conscious-Charity915 8d ago

Unless you're a fashion designer, there isn't any "education" involved in headwear. All patriarchal religions have a weird obsession with headwear. And women's hair.

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u/daniellefore 8d ago

You’re missing the point. Imagine that makeup was outlawed because it was seen as a tool of patriarchal oppression. Wouldn’t you agree that would be just as oppressive as requiring all women wear makeup (which in a lot of ways we are). Just because something can be used as a requirement to oppress women doesn’t meant that thing is always oppression when women ourselves choose it. The point is to have a choice and be able to wear what we want

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u/SuppleSuplicant 8d ago

Absolutely this. I hated wearing makeup when I had to for work and now I love to do it when I go out on weekends. Anything can be used against us. It’s all about self determination.

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u/Shelala85 8d ago

No, there is very much education involved. There are academic books, articles, and women’s personal experiences all dedicated to the subject. You do not get to silence their voices.

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u/lauragarlic 8d ago edited 8d ago

the way i see it- yes, the vast majority of hijabis globally have the hijab forced on them.

but the ruling in one particularly hindu nationalist state in india has forbidden hijabis- students and teachers, from entering the classroom. this is- in essence, punishing the victims of suffocating patriarchal standards, instead of the perps. as it will only prevent hijabis from attending classes or teaching them.

i will wager that girls who have the hijab forced upon them are likelier to escape its burden with an education, rather than without.

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u/tosstosstosstossssss 8d ago

Being able to choose whatever you want to do with your clothes for whatever reason you want to choose it is valid and we need to stop telling women what they can and can’t cover on their bodies.

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u/slowcheetah4545 8d ago

That they're both fighting for their rights is the irony. Irony isn't a good or bad thing. It's just irony.

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u/Federal_Diamond8329 8d ago

Rather seems like a worldwide war on women.

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u/Unfey 8d ago

God I hope someday we can live in a world where the way women dress is exclusively their own business. By saying "you MUST wear this" or "you CANNOT wear this" they're really just saying "you have to act the way we want you to & pretend that you're a different type of person with different beliefs or else everyone will see that we can't control your minds & we'll lose our claim to authority."

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u/Auralynnnnnnnnn 8d ago

Fucking finally someone with a brain.

I’ve seen so many people say that wearing a hijab is like, anti-feminist and stuff like that like ???? No bitch ??? It’s women’s choice what they do! Don’t say wearing something or not wearing something ( unless it has text on it that says shit related to the topic) means something it pisses me off so much

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u/larimari ✨ Charmed & Charming ✨ 8d ago edited 8d ago

In Karnataka (a state in India) the supreme court ruled that schools may ban hijabs. Karnataka is a hindu majority with a hindu nationalist party. The people want hijabs allowed because a government should not be able to restrict or force religion.

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u/lovethyself1 8d ago

It’s too bad that women have to fight for this. It should be presumed.

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u/MyChemicalAnarchy 8d ago edited 8d ago

Yes! Thank you!! Too much Islamaphobia from other subs and groups by a bunch of white non-Muslims/people not raised Muslim or in a Muslim country, so THANK YOU for making this.

Women, folks in general, Muslim or not, have a right to choose what they put on their heads (and frankly the whole of their bodies). A hijab is not oppressive until it suddenly stops becoming a choice. End of story.That's like saying that transitioning is oppressive because Iran often forces queer people to transition to 'heterosexualize' their orientation. That's NOT how it works, as a trans and queer Arab.

Oppression = lack of choice
There can be intersectionality!

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u/lauragarlic 8d ago

A hijab is not oppressive until it suddenly stops becoming a choice. End of story

the hijab is oppressive though. the vast majority of hijabis globally don’t have the option to reject the hijab. i am just opposed to punishing victims of the hijab instead of the perps who force the hijab on “their” women

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u/sweet_chick283 8d ago

I was banned from r/feminism for suggesting this exact argument. Everyone should have the right to choose what they wear and we should support our sisters fight to recognise that choice

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u/CheesecakeHot9939 8d ago

HER RIGHT TO CHOOSE!

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u/Skaid 8d ago

The issue is it being a religious symbol, no? If so, will they be denied covering their hair with a hat or a bandana? I am not pro any bans, but could it be that it is actually freeing for some? Like their family pressures them to wear one against their will, but a ban allows them to take it off without repercussions?

I don't think it's as easy as "let everyone do what they want" when it comes to hijabs. One feminist I follow, who grew up under Islam, claims that no one wears a hijab out of free will, and I would assume she knows better than me at least.

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