r/WitchesVsPatriarchy Oct 02 '22

I am shook. Just found out my fiancé plans on voting for Kari Lake. Burn the Patriarchy

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1.2k Upvotes

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u/blumoon138 Oct 02 '22

Has he been able to articulate why? Is his support for this person part of a broader change in his personality? What does he say when you express your concerns?

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u/analog_ali Oct 02 '22

He’s very open to articulate why with his brother and his friend who are similarly minded, with me it’s been more vague. I will be attempting to have a calm and curious conversation with him to really figure it out. I will also be recording it, because I’ve notice he’s been saying quite alarming statements and then backtracking.

There has been a slow shift in his personality since the end of 2020.

I’ve expressed concerns many times and he finds a way to convince me we’re on the same page with our beliefs.

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u/AgentMeatbal Oct 02 '22 Helpful Wholesome

It’s ok to not have all the same beliefs as your partner, but if one of those beliefs goes against your human rights…. Consider yourself as a child. Whatever age comes to mind. Look that child in the eyes and tell them this is the partner they’re with. Would you be proud to tell her? Is this the romance she grew up dreaming for? Is this the partner you’d happily gift to her?

YOU are still that little girl. If you wouldn’t put her in this relationship, don’t put you in that position either.

I’m not saying it isn’t fixable, but just remember you’re that little girl and you’re fighting to give her everything she deserves.

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u/trinlayk Oct 02 '22

ALSO Is this a person you'd trust to act in the best interests of that child?

I suspect that he hasn't been honest with you for a long time. When you leave the relationship, op, whether now or years down the road be very very careful.

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u/Benrein Oct 02 '22

I don't think he has a right to be with you if he can't support women's rights to bodily autonomy. Since y'all aren't married yet, the legality will be much simpler. He doesn't deserve to be with a woman if he can't respect their bodies, choices, and is swayed by religion versus faith, swayed by the creepy male rhetoric of "Where would we be without men" camp. Politics matter in a marriage just as much as finances and religious beliefs. Don't build your life with someone who's wanting to take your freedom, healthcare, voting rights, and more away due to voting for people actively pushing for those rights to be removed from legal protection. He doesn't see you has an equal human being deserving of equity.

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u/justanotherlostgirl Geek Witch ♀ Oct 02 '22

Ok political differences you can maybe work out but shift of personality and alarming statements is concerning. Do you live with him?

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u/itsonlyfear Oct 02 '22

If you know that he’s manipulating you, not a good sign. I know you know that already but sometimes the really obvious stuff needs to be said. After your conversation with him it’s really worth thinking about where you stand and what you want, especially if this will be a continuing source of conflict.

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u/Early-Ad-6014 Oct 02 '22

Huh ... no he isn't. Same page??He's not even in the same library as you! It's your choice; good luck with that!

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u/flufflesauce Oct 02 '22

This! Also professional counseling! Sometimes an outsider looking in can sometimes help if you guys have trouble communicating on this one.

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u/ExistingEffort7 Oct 02 '22

We reached a point where we're forced to choose our partners based on their politics. I heard it, believed it, and understood it 15 years ago when I heard someone suggest that saying I don't discuss politics means your life has never been restricted or impacted by politics and that is a form of privilege.

Now it's personal. I don't just know it, and believe it, and understand it; I feel it

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u/drewbaccaAWD Science Witch ☉ Hex Wrench Mechanic Oct 02 '22

Pretty much.. if not sooner, by 2016 it was no longer a difference of opinions anymore but straight up difference in character and values.

And that was then... since then, we have a majority of one major political party outright denying election results two years after the last vote was cast... it's insane. There's no meeting halfway with someone who wants to throw out my vote or deny it.

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u/FaceToTheSky Science Witch ♀ Oct 02 '22

“difference of opinion” vs “difference of character and values” Very well put. It’s not about voting for this or that political party, it’s that one of the parties has exhibited a willingness to infringe on the human rights of some demographics. Voting for that party means you’re willing to throw those people under the bus to get what you want.

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u/analog_ali Oct 02 '22

This is exactly it for me. I am okay with difference of opinion, him and I are very different that helps us as individuals to define who we are better. But I am not okay with differences in values when they ignore human rights of the marginalized, that’s the foundation of neo-liberal ideology. I’m not okay with that.

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u/FaceToTheSky Science Witch ♀ Oct 02 '22

I thought neo-liberalism was the desire to pretend that everyone already has equal rights just because we wish they did, and therefore the status quo is ok… or do we mean the same thing and we’re just using different words?

(I’m Canadian where literally one of the federal political parties is called The Liberal Party and are largely assumed to be centrist, so I get confused between Liberal and liberal/neo-liberal and what some Americans call “liberal” by which they mean “not Republican”. And just to be super clear, I’m aware that centrism, including the kind that the Canadian Liberal parties espouse, means “support the status quo” which functionally means that existing systems of oppression stay in place. By contrast, conservative/right-wing parties in both countries generally work to increase inequality - although pre-2016 or so, they were subtler about it.)

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u/manhaterz4prez Oct 02 '22

So, the issue here is that the word “liberal” is used a few ways. In casual conversation with a general, not very political crowd, you could say “I’m liberal” or “I’m pretty liberal” and mean “I’m on the left.” But in other contexts the word refers to a set of principles laid out in the Enlightment. To say someone is a neo-lib (or if you’re on the true left to just call someone a “lib”) refers mostly to this context.

People of this ideology might say that “a nazi parade is ok because we all should have free speech” or “let’s make sure the judge isn’t racist but not approach the issues at the crux of crime” or “everyone should have the option to purchase healthcare, but not make it free for all.”

So I think you and OP mostly have the same sense of it, but are placing the emphasis a bit differently, because OP is concerned here with who and what those policies leave out.

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u/FaceToTheSky Science Witch ♀ Oct 02 '22

Ok, so neo-liberal is like… true neutral? And sort of… focuses on the underlying principles while ignoring both context and the eventual consequences if people take those principles to their logical extreme?

e.g. Principle: free speech is good! Logical extreme: hate speech must be allowed under freedom of speech.

e.g. Principle: racism is bad! Extension: considering a person’s race at all is bad! Ignoring context: Considering how a person’s race influences their experience in life is bad! [and never mind that society itself is racist]

It’s a very idealistic viewpoint and seems to be based on some kind of assumption that everyone is well-meaning. And it seems to be a little fixated on individual actions, but not on structural problems. Which (having been raised as a well-meaning white person, by well-meaning white people) is very upsetting when you realize the world doesn’t actually work that way, and I think is where a lot of people get stuck. Comes back to conversations about privilege and ideas like “it’s not enough to be non-racist, you have to be anti-racist”.

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u/manhaterz4prez Oct 02 '22

I’m not sure about the true neutral part but I think that’s mostly right and those are good examples. So two of the big issues people further left have with it, in addition to ignoring context, is it’s belief in the free market and that the ideology as a whole it can overlap strongly with incrementalism and pragmatism at the expense of really helping people now.

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u/analog_ali Oct 02 '22

Neoliberal ideology “favoring policies that promote free-market capitalism, deregulation, and reduction in government spending.”

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u/FaceToTheSky Science Witch ♀ Oct 02 '22

Ah, I see. Something something Overton window, but that sounds right-of-centre to me. But again, that’s probably the political context here - those are the kinds of ideas our “moderate right-wing” politicians and parties tend to promote. (And then the parties that bill themselves as centrist, like the Liberals, will sometimes enact some of these types of policies in order to draw in voters who consider themselves moderate rightists.)

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u/HallowskulledHorror Witch ☉ Oct 02 '22

Yeah, my feelings about a lot of people I knew but have since lost touch with is that out of the available options, no matter what else you might dismiss as rumor or being unfair, if you honestly felt that voting for the guy who was recorded bragging about not caring about consent and sexually assaulting people, and barged into a dressing room in the stated hopes of seeing underage girls undressed, was the better option over even just abstaining from voting if you couldn't stomach anyone else - how could I respect you or hold your opinion to mean anything?

There's been some difficult conversations with family members about how they threw away their integrity and are dishonest with themselves, as people who have made big statements about what they would do with rapists and child molesters, but voted for a man that made it pretty clear that his feelings on consent and sexualizing children came down to 'what can I get away with?'

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u/FaceToTheSky Science Witch ♀ Oct 02 '22

For. Real. I remember driving to work the morning after the 2016 election, listening to my usual CBC morning show. They were interviewing ex-pat Americans who voted, and it was like “well, teh economy or whatever” and I found myself screaming at the radio so hard, about exactly what you just wrote, that I had to pull over and cry for 5 minutes before I could finish the drive.

I’m sorry that you’ve got people like this in your actual family.

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u/auntiepink Oct 02 '22

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u/akira2bee Witch ⚧ Oct 02 '22

I love this theory and I name it all the time to people who have never learned about it, because it can apply to so many minorities whose identities are political no matter what they do or how they act

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u/Clean_Link_Bot Oct 02 '22

beep boop! the linked website is: https://www.carolhanisch.org/CHwritings/PIP.html

Title: The Personal Is Political: the original feminist theory paper at the author's web site

Page is safe to access (Google Safe Browsing)


###### I am a friendly bot. I show the URL and name of linked pages and check them so that mobile users know what they click on!

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u/diente_de_leon Resting Witch Face Oct 02 '22

Good bot

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u/coffeehouse11 Oct 02 '22

This is the truth - Everything is political. Everything you do, or don't do, is a political action. The choice "not to be political", or to not think about the politics of your actions, are in and of themselves political choices.

Sometimes not thinking about the politics of the food you're eating, or the clothing you're wearing, or the street you're walking down, is self-care - you cannot overwhelm yourself with the politics of all things at all times or you'll drive yourself crazy - but we must be able to freely admit that all choices are political choices.

The art we consume is political, even if it wasn't intended to be. Who holds power in the story? What light are they painted in? What system is in place to organize society? How is it painted? A lack of an answer to those questions is also a political choice upon the author. Yes, there is a place in the world for safe stories about witches who slay dragons, but even then we must acknowledge that our identification with witches comes from the history of them being seen as outsiders, enemies of society, and dangerous, simply for being strong and knowledgeable.

Everything is political. People who don't talk politics are fools, or have been taught that their opinion is worthless, or are hiding something.

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u/Lolasdone Oct 02 '22

This! ☝️ I recently had someone I love and care for tell that they wouldn’t discuss politics with me after I asked them to help me understand why they said they voted for trump and would again…they refused after I expressed why I felt the way I did and that it wasn’t a blue or red thing it was from the perspective of a woman (me) who’s been sexually assaulted as well as had a man literally grab me by my PU$$y. Like help me understand…still nothing just flat out anger at my asking for a conversation. I told them that their refusal tells me that they probably don’t know why and that they are more than likely following the herd that was their immediate inner circle…since that last thing said I have been blocked.

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u/Significant-Stay-721 Oct 02 '22

You are too patient with this person. You provided more than enough opportunities for dialogue, more than enough understanding.❤️

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u/prismaticcroissant Sapphic Witch ♀ Oct 02 '22

Very true

Also, I wanted to give an updoot but you are currently at 666 and I didn't want to ruin that magic

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u/HippieLizLemon Oct 02 '22

Thank you for sharing, great quote.

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u/ASwiftKitty Oct 02 '22

I didn’t know who this was so I just did a google search. Honestly, if your values differ this significantly you should really have a heart to heart with your partner over whether or not you two are compatible. I’m fine with people having different views than myself, but I’d never go to bed with a person who aligned themselves with Ideas and beliefs that I find extremely toxic to my core.

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u/MissMys Oct 02 '22

I alway say, having different opinions on how to structure taxation isn't a big deal. Having different opinions on who gets human rights isn't something you can "work through."

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u/Girl_in_the_Mirror Oct 02 '22

There was a video of a white dude talking about Trump and being racist af to his girlfriend, who was a Black woman, a few years back. The video went viral. He didn't start out that way apparently, because they had been together for years, but he ended up that way. It went viral after they split I think, but she recorded his diatribe and it was unhinged.

The point being, eventually their true selves come out.

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u/MeinScheduinFroiline Oct 02 '22 edited Oct 02 '22 All-Seeing Upvote

Ugh not always. My dad was going through a really really hard time and unfortunately spending most of his time by himself listening to Fox News, as that was kinda his only option. He became a raving trump lunatic. Me and him had several toe to toe screaming matches over it and his hatred based views (anti trans/LGBTQ+, anti woman, racism, just all the bigotry). A year or two later, the reason for his hard time was resolved and I introduced him to podcasts, but he still hadn’t changed back.

Then the pandemic hit and he had to go on disability, so instead of being by himself all the time, was at home around family and rarely listening to that hatred fuel. I also got pregnant I met with him and told him how much I loved him and would like a relationship with him, but that if it didn’t change, I wouldn’t be able to have him around my baby. And slowly with so much work on his part, he changed back. He stopped hating all the time. Stopped being so angry. Started to have empathy and kindness again. Him and my little girl are seriously best friends and I am so glad he is in her life.

So long story short, it isn’t necessarily their true selves. There can be contributing factors. My dads mental and physical health was TERRIBLE and that made him susceptible to it. He was also in an environment where that was so much of what was around. He had a complete change to correct his mental and physical health, as well as his environment. I don’t think he would have made the change back without.

However if he had been my partner instead of my dad, I think I would still have left him. I don’t think I could have waited that out. My mom is super strong!

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u/radiant-heart8 Oct 02 '22

Totally agree that what media people consume can really affect them. My MIL is a crazy person when it comes to politics - thinks BLM and democrats are satanists and communists. If she wasn’t alone watching Fox News and other nonsense a lot of the time I think she’d be more normal politically because outside of that sphere she’s a very kind and empathetic person

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u/MeinScheduinFroiline Oct 02 '22

Thanks! Yeah I have read so many tragic stories about people lost to Fox “News” and other hatred fuel. It is heart breaking. Hope your MIL finds her way out again! 💕

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u/oneofmanyany Oct 02 '22

Fox is always the common thread. They have contributed a huge amount to destroying and degrading family relationships in this country.

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u/Gokoshofu Oct 02 '22

There’s a documentary called “The Brainwashing of my Dad”, made before the rise of Trumpism. It helped clarify why my father went off the deep end (he listened to Limbaugh for decades.)

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u/bettytomatoes Oct 02 '22

Completely agree. My dad was always super liberal. Total hippie in the 60s. Raised me to be super liberal. He started watching Fox news, not because he liked it, but because he thought it was important to "spy" on the other side, so we could figure out what they're thinking and how best to fight them. He used to just yell at the TV and complain about everything they said.

But after years and years of it, it got to him. "They" got to him. He's still not a Trumper, thank god. But... he's having a very hard time with things like BLM, LGBTQIA issues, doesn't understand being "woke", has taken the republican's stance on things like universal healthcare (when he was all for it before).

I have BEGGED him to stop watching it, but he won't. He's addicted. He thinks CNN is "too liberal". It's heartbreaking. He hasn't gone full MAGA... and he's still voting Democrat, thank god... but he's not the man he used to be. He's definitely changing. Issue by issue, this constant exposure is getting to him and changing him. I truly dread what he's going to be like when he's 90.

And I dread what he's going to teach my 5 year old son, who loves and adores him and wants to do everything to "be like Pappap".

My only hope is that Fox News will just go out of business somehow or their cable channels will stop carrying it, like they did with OAN. But he'd still probably find it online. I don't know what to do.

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u/Alias_Black Green Witch the Zen Karen Oct 02 '22

My Dad was the same, he would take me on walks when I was small with trash bags so we could pick up plastic litter. He even took me to see Ralph Nader speak on Earth day. Then Regan ran for President. The cult of personality won him over. He was lost. However 3 weeks before he passed in February, he finally admitted that Joe Biden legitimately won the Oval Office, and he had been wrong. He quoted LBJ about giving the lowest white man something to look down on, and you have them in your pocket, as some kind of excuse. Then he lectured me about Emmett Till. I said “Dad, you are dying, I don’t want to talk about politics any more, can’t we talk about butterflies instead.” It was a moment of clarity at the end of his life, he finally saw the damage he enabled with his vote.

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u/Willothwisp2303 Oct 02 '22

My Dad started out Republican, retired, then started reading. He left the GOP with Bush 2's lies and registered independent. He went to an Obama rally with me for his first election. Before his second term he changed his registration to Dem. He voted for a lesbian progressive for governor in the next election. Then voted Bernie. He's now American far left and digging out family history of his Dad being a union leader.

Suggest some books for your father. The People's History of the United States is a book on tape so he can easily listen while doing chores, etc.

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u/analog_ali Oct 02 '22

It’s interesting, my dad is this way and sometimes he’ll have these moments of great clarity. Once he looked at me and said, “You know, when I was young I never dreamed I’d be this way, I never dreamed I’d be this right-wing guy. How did I get here?” His eyes were so shiny, so sad and confused. That will always stick with me.

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u/spicytacosauce603 Oct 02 '22

put a child lock on his tv! i’ve heard of people doing that before. if you can get in and restrict what he watches maybe a detox for a few weeks would do some good

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u/Pame_in_reddit Oct 02 '22

I’m going to be blunt, but use your son. Your father can choose between watching Fox news or visiting his grandson. They can’t lie about it, because 3 months without the crazy makes A BIG DIFFERENCE, not only in how they express themselves, but also in their overall happiness and mental health. My mom chose me and she’s my mom again.

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u/Kayakorama Oct 02 '22

So your Dad rejected taking Medicare?

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u/BooBooKittyFuk1 Oct 02 '22

My dad was liberal for life. He then started watching Fox News because “the women were hot”. Now that my mom has passed, he’s alone, with Fox News to keep him company. His physically and emotional health are in the toilet, and he’s angrier than ever. Really changed for the worse in 2016. I’m so sad about it.

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u/blackbirdbluebird17 Oct 02 '22

Hearing other peoples stories like this makes me SO glad my mom is a Maddow Mom. I still wish it wasn’t cable news, but thank god it’s not far-right cable news.

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u/predy_mama Kitchen Witch ♀♂️☉⚧ Oct 02 '22

My in-laws are Maddow/Goodman folks. My dad is Fox….. my in-laws get to take my son overnight, my dad does not.

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u/analog_ali Oct 02 '22

Yes. This is what I’ve been witnessing as well, the shifts in him are very much tied to anxiety and his environment.

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u/moonythejedi394 Oct 02 '22

i'm very glad your dad changed. that's so heartwarming.

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u/ScratchShadow Resting Witch Face Oct 02 '22

Thank you so much for sharing your/your dad’s story. One of the impressions I’m left with, both from your situation and others who’ve shared their experiences as well (particularly here on Reddit,) is that these types of media, these hateful, conspiratorial messages bring out the worst of people, with those who are socially vulnerable being at the highest risk of falling into this trap.

Individuals who are, or feel that they are socially isolated or alienated, particularly from mainstream cultural values and current events (or, again, their understanding of them, which can be easily manipulated) seem to be particularly susceptible to these conspiratorial and/or hate groups. I think it comes from (amongst other things) feelings of isolation and rejection by greater society, which may prompt them to seek out media that mirrors their more disenchanted and pessimistic (hurt) view of the current state of things.

Unfortunately, as we know, these sources aren’t here to help those who feel dejected or disconnected from the community at large; they take that insecurity and exploit it for their own purposes, magnifying the worst qualities we as humans have, and further alienates individuals not just from this abstract concept of “society,” but from the very real people and relationships they engage with every day.

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u/hodlboo Oct 02 '22

This is a great example. From what OP said, her partner’s personality started changing in 2020 and I saw that with a number of family members too. The stress of the pandemic, election, and news cycle / access to terrible forms of Facebook news during at-home boredom made people really susceptible to serious shifts in their beliefs from both a mental health and a practical perspective. I think OP should consider that her partner may be relying on these new beliefs to cover up some deeper anxieties.

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u/oneofmanyany Oct 02 '22

I am living this situation. I would strongly warn against marrying someone like this. The OP should consider themselves lucky that they found out in time to stop the wedding.

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u/Dreadhead55 Oct 02 '22

Yeah, that would be a deal breaker for me. I’m a democratic socialist and my husband is a democrat. We bump heads sometimes, but we respect each other’s opinion enough to just let it be.

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u/analog_ali Oct 02 '22

That’s just it. We were both democratic socialists just a minute ago. I blinked and he’s completely different. He’s so bitter towards the Democrats for doing nothing that he’s voting for the republicans because they’re more active. I respect his opinion and his intelligence, he’s extremely intelligent in my opinion and he has always been a well of empathy and emotional intelligence as well. But the tide has shifted drastically and suddenly. It feels like men are being hypnotized by GOP sirens and they’re plunging into the deep end at such an alarming rate.

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u/Dreadhead55 Oct 02 '22

Jumping to the GOP is a dangerous option in my opinion. While he might be right that they're not doing enough, what have the Repubs accomplished other than permanently fracturing their party? My question to him would be, what do you think you will accomplish personally by voting/lobbying for a Repub ticket? At this point, what it stands for is hatred. That's why Adam Kinzinger won't run again and Liz Cheney is leaving the party. I'd take a hard look at his reasons, sister.

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u/Caftancatfan Oct 02 '22

I don’t mean to be unkind, but his is not an intelligent take whatsoever. It’s pretty weak-minded to jump from being butt hurt that Bernie didn’t win to washing your hands of the party that represents the issues you care about altogether.

For me, this would not only be gross, but it would make me lose respect for my partner’s intelligence.

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u/666GoatW Oct 02 '22

https://www.dailykos.com/stories/2021/10/16/2058227/-50-Amazing-Things-Democrats-Have-Done-Since-Biden-Took-Office-Saturday-s-GNR

The rEpublicans have only offered to cut taxes for the morbidly wealthy, cut social programs and healthcare, and push back women's rights by 200 years.

Ask him what specifically does he think they offer.

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u/MsMcClane Oct 02 '22

The thing is that you can't let him drag you down with him, I'm afraid. You know the kind of person you are, and you know how this kind of road ends. I am so sorry this is happening to you.

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u/SirZacharia Oct 02 '22

The republicans are more active toward his beliefs? I don’t know that he was every a democratic socialist then.

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u/CozmicOwl16 Oct 02 '22

Politics are your morals in action. You don’t marry a person with low morals. I’m sorry but I’m glad before it’s too late.

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u/MissTakesWereMaid Oct 02 '22

What's he been watching online? What forums has he been visiting? With the abrupt switch in politics, I'd be scared he's gotten mixed up in Qanon conspiracy bullshit. Check out r/QAnonCasualties and see if anything looks familiar. That stuff pulls people in like a cult. Truly insidious and terrifying. Either way, I'm so sorry for you, this would shake me up too.

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u/Exotic-Huckleberry Geek Witch ♀ Oct 02 '22

I’d also plug Shadowlands, on Peacock. I’ve been recommending it to everyone, particularly people I know who have lost someone to QAnon bullshit.

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u/Coatzlfeather Oct 02 '22

Since you asked directly, I gotta say… people change, & ten years is a long time. Is the relationship the same as it was? Is he the same as he was? I’m not going to say you should dump him, but I am gonna say that I recommend a long hard think about your future together because, as we’re all aware, anyone ok with voting GOP in this day & age is ok with stripping women of reproductive freedom, homophobia & transphobia, racism, Christian nationalism… the list goes on.

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u/sugarshizzl Oct 02 '22

You are on to something here. I’ve been married for 32 years (together 5 years before marriage) and believe me people change. I’m happy to say my husband went from voting all Republican to backing away from the party completely. He’s not a fan of the current cult like mindset of the GOP and I honestly think he had his head up his ass for a long time but now is more aware. I don’t think I would be too happy if he didn’t.

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u/Next_Regret_2572 Oct 02 '22

Be shook, this is a hard one. I feel for you in this situation.

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u/analog_ali Oct 02 '22

Thank you. We’re in such a pivotal moment as a society. And I feel that vulnerability, that tenderness, of having so much at stake—within the broader society and within my own private relationship.

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u/undeadbydawn Scottish Forest Witch ♀♂️☉⚧ Oct 02 '22

Take some time out. Go for a walk, breathe, etc. The usual.

Then, with a clear mind, write down every remotely reasonable objection you have, and pro's for the preferable candidate.

Then write down the 'ffs' arguments.

Sit him down and have the conversation. Let him say his piece, do not interrupt. If you need to take notes, do that.

Then go back over every point and burn them all down.

If he wants to make defensive arguments, let him. Then burn them down as well.

If, at the end of that conversation, his position hasn't changed, inform him this is a potential relationship-ending event and he really needs to consider, very carefully, why he's suddenly going TFG, and whether that's worth losing you.

Because that's what he's facing. So he'd better be damned sure Kari Lake is worth it.

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u/FrogPrinc3ss Oct 02 '22

I would also be wary of him saying he had a change of heart and then supporting this candidate and others with a similar philosophy when he gets in the voting booth. Supports of these candidates have a real problem with recognizing lies and no problem repeating them.

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u/Kayakorama Oct 02 '22 edited Oct 02 '22

I did this with my boyfriend.

Turns out he really did think women (and children) are chattel.

We are no longer dating.

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u/undeadbydawn Scottish Forest Witch ♀♂️☉⚧ Oct 02 '22

That cannot have been a fun experience, and you have my absolute respect for leaving him behind.

I hope your life improves significantly for not having him in it

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u/13Mira Oct 02 '22

If, at the end of that conversation, his position hasn't changed, inform him this is a potential relationship-ending event

I'm not sure I would do that. If OP's fiance is even the slightest bit manipulative, it would be easy for him to act as though he's going to change and just vote for that person in secret. Basically, giving him an ultimatum like this is giving him an easy way out. If logic and reason can't get him to change his mind, then OP would just be setting herself up for trouble by giving him a way out.

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u/undeadbydawn Scottish Forest Witch ♀♂️☉⚧ Oct 02 '22

This is an entirely fair and valid point.
I'll leave my comment as is, but agree with you that it may not be the best strategy

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u/oneofmanyany Oct 02 '22

Let me just kindly explain something to you because I have experienced this. No matter how you try to convince the person using facts, they will not agree that they are facts because this information came from Main Stream Media (MSM) and it is fake news. So there is actually no real way to get through to these folks. If it was not said on Fox News or some other right wing site, they will not believe it.

I could see this coming when Trump started to call the media "the enemy" and calling everything fake news. Very worrisome.

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u/undeadbydawn Scottish Forest Witch ♀♂️☉⚧ Oct 02 '22

I am painfully aware of this.

That's why it has to be a conversation. Why he has to be allowed to express, in full, his own reasoning. There's a chance - maybe a slim one, but still a chance - that in trying to justify his decision, he will realise it's a really bad one. It's a trick I've used a great many times, with regular success. You essentially get someone to identify why they are wrong, in their own words. And I feel it's very much worth trying here.

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u/[deleted] Oct 02 '22

[deleted]

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u/undeadbydawn Scottish Forest Witch ♀♂️☉⚧ Oct 02 '22

This is undoubtedly true in the broader sense, but she's the target of this specific post.

The state of the nation, the GOP, and the rise of facism is a much larger conversation, hence my suggestion to focus on Lake and Trump in this instance. She's the person he wants to vote for. That's the clear and present issue. The rest can be dealt with later (assuming there is a 'later')

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u/TheEmpressDodo Resting Witch Face Oct 02 '22

Honey. No way I’d marry a Trump supporter. I’d end it.

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u/candycoatedshovel Oct 02 '22

I don’t ever say this unironically, but just throw the whole man away. I saw her campaign video. She wants to bring back the wall idea? And she believes in the plandemic? No. Nu uh. I would at the very least spend some time apart.

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u/Difficult_Water1333 Oct 02 '22

Drop him like a toilet seat. Nobody needs that bullshit in their life.

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u/psychotica1 Oct 02 '22

I'm also in AZ and I personally would be reevaluating this relationship. It sounds like a serious discussion is in order. I'm really sorry for what you must be going through trying to reconcile his politics with the person you thought you knew.

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u/chamomilehoneywhisk Oct 02 '22

I honestly could not share my life with someone who is republican.

I’ve already cut a GOP cousin out of my life. His politics have made him an insensitive a-hole, who cares more about his politics/religion than living people or even his family.

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u/Greedy_Atmosphere_30 Oct 02 '22

Listen listen op, drink strong coffee and make him explain himself. If he's having conservative disease, then it's garbage time.

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u/Carolineinthedesert Oct 02 '22

I'm sorry but I absolutely have to agree. it's one thing to be an old timey conservative who likes small government, and another to be in the new qult. I live in an area with Kari Lake signs, and one of the biggest problems with these candidates is the idea that if they win, the results are sound - but if they lose, the election was compromised. I miss living in a healthy democracy. OP, do whatever makes you feel whole, whether this person belongs with you or not will become obvious. and yes, I would definitely ask for details explanations and have a very frank discussion.

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u/Exotic-Huckleberry Geek Witch ♀ Oct 02 '22

Yeah, my BIL is Republican in the “small government good” way, and I respect the hell out of him as a person. We disagree on spending, and he thinks the private sector can better provide the social safety net because he’s a good person who helps others.

He has not voted for any of these looney tunes people, and I suspect he voted Biden in 2020 rather than abstaining like he did in 2016 (although I haven’t asked because I try to give him space on political issues and leave my sister to her long game there).

I can love someone who has differences of opinion, but I will not be in a relationship with someone who is okay with stripping people’s rights away. Full stop.

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u/Throwawaychica Literary Witch ♀ Oct 02 '22

Be thankful you didn't marry him before finding out his morals are deplorable.

And definitely kick him to the curb, you deserve better!

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u/rulen613 Oct 02 '22

Have that heart to heart. But you need to step away from your emotion - how did you find out this information? From him, or from a 3rd party, or from some material evidence?

Are there other signs he's a trump supporter, or just this one thing?

Has he been out-and-about a liberal and progressive in behavior, or just in conversation with you?

I would like you to evaluate your impressions and information sources. What do you KNOW you know, and how? What do you THINK you know and how? You have conflicting information, which means something is wrong - either some of your information, or what you are concluding based on that information.

Without more info, there's far to much unknown to give you good advice. But here's what could be the case.

Somebody is trying to break your relationship. Or just mess with it because they're evil.

He was messing with Lake campaign material (probably illegal) to mess with her campaign.

He has been gaslighting you about his beliefs.

He's had a brain tumor develop.

He's decided to terrify you for Halloween, and hit on the most effective way.

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u/revsmb Oct 02 '22

Illness beyond a brain tumor is a possibility as well.

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u/analog_ali Oct 02 '22

Thank you, this has been very helpful. I’ll be making a few lists and this will be one of them

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u/SJJawwwsome Oct 02 '22

Very good! Site your sources but for your love life.

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u/fire_fairy_ Oct 02 '22

I would dump his ass.

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u/justanotherlostgirl Geek Witch ♀ Oct 02 '22

This. There is no conversation or middle ground with someone who supports this toxic dumpster of a person. Sever ties and disengage with your boyfriend and go find someone decent to have a relationship with because your boyfriend is choosing hate and bonds to toxic people over you.

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u/Significant-Stay-721 Oct 02 '22

Right? I feel like this is obvious.

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u/Ihartpnw Oct 02 '22

I’d dump him. I know that because I did. It’s a moral and ethical issue.

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u/LilPajamas Oct 02 '22

Is this a cowardly tactic on his part to get out of the relationship?

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u/runswithdolls Oct 02 '22

Sorry your engagement is over.

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u/pumkinpuddn Oct 02 '22

I'd be relieved that he wasn't my husband yet so I could leave/have him leave a bit easier

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u/Important_Chef_4717 Oct 02 '22

I’m hesitant to comment because I’m not being dismissive of your SO, but my parents went through this right before the 2020 election. My dad just suddenly started buying into all the weird Trump shit. Made my mom crazy. I flew up there with my kids summer of ‘19 and my dad had me drop him off at his office so I could use his truck. Soon as his phone connects…… a super right wing extremist podcast starts playing. I was like holyfuck Mom has no idea you’re listening to this shit during your commute Dad. And she’s gonna divorce you asafuckinp when she finds out. We talked about it the whole way to his office and it turns out he started listening because a new attorney was listening at work and the guy is real charismatic etc and was lowkey pumping up all the attorneys in the office with his misogynistic views about boomer men being bullied.

Absolutely wild. My dad told my mom and she was like okay, cool. So are you retiring or cutting this guy loose? The new attorney ended up relocating just 2 months later, but it was absolutely ridiculous to see 5 fully grown, fully educated, middle aged white men completely fall victim to this asinine culture of hate everyone else and blame them.

TL;DR - check your SO’s listening habits and “new” friends. He may be getting stroked into his newly formed opinions by someone else.

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u/1984vintage Oct 02 '22

I’d leave. No way would I be with that person. Nope. Girl, get out now.

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u/Effective_Honeydew96 Oct 02 '22

Me and my ex had a lot of the same interests as far as life goes but when trump ran for office, he became super political and his whole world revolved around…you guessed it Fox News. I tried and tried to tell myself that we could hold vastly different beliefs and still work out, refusing to let him talk politics with me helped at first. Then he went full on Q and would use the most vulgar words in every day conversations. I didn’t want my children to grow up thinking that was ok, so for my sanity and my children’s outlook on life I knew it would never work out. He still has a kind heart, but there is so much hatred in it as well - being around someone who holds that much animosity towards others is a drain on you. As I said I tried to make it work, but it became too much. Good luck and I hope you find happiness with or without your partner.

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u/predy_mama Kitchen Witch ♀♂️☉⚧ Oct 02 '22

When my husband and I had decided to start trying to conceive, he asked me why I felt confident in the choice. I told him that I believed (and still do, beyond a shadow of a doubt) that if I died or if we got divorced, he would be the kind of influence I want for our kid when left alone with our kid. I went down the list: feminist, anti-racist, anti-bigoted, atheist, humanist, environmentalist socialist. Our friendship began 15 years ago and grew slowly over time to become a life partnership based on endless conversations around sociopolitical topics and he has never once shocked me. We both grow more progressive each year, and now that our kid is almost 4, I continue to know in my core that if I dropped dead tomorrow, my son would be left with his dad and his parents who would raise him with the same sociopolitical values that I would. I literally sleep better at night knowing that if I don’t wake up, my kid (with his penis shaped genitals and pearly white skin) won’t be turned into a social weapon by the people who would be left to raise him.

I don’t know if you and your partner have spoken about having kids or not, and I know people love to incite panic by wailing “think of the children”, but here we are. If you do want kids, then it’s not just you that you have to consider. Reddit is a great place to read about what it looks like when people who aren’t politically, religiously and socially aligned have kids. I’m on a variety of parenting subs, the exchristian sub, and it even comes up here in this sub. It’s pure nightmare fuel, and every time I see a post about someone who’s spouse who is actively influencing their children to be bigots, I send out a little prayer of gratitude to the universe that I was able to have clarity in that area. I was once in love with (and still love…and crave…to this day) a man who wasn’t a bigot, but was openly apathetic to bigotries. He fully acknowledged that racism runs the world, and had a very “oh well” stance about it. As I learned more and more about our privileges, he continued to respond with what basically amounted to “so what?” I was a shell of a person back then, still hadn’t addressed any of my childhood traumas, and desperately wanted to be with him. I “simply” promised myself to not have kids with him because I couldn’t I’m good conscience bring a child into the world to be partially raised by someone who was openly apathetic. Luckily he did me the favor of leaving me, and I ended up with someone who has a ton of the qualities I craved in him but with all the values I started in the beginning of this comment: feminist, anti-racist, anti-bigoted, atheist, humanist, environmentalist socialist.

If you want children some day, do not brush this under the rug. Anyone who has gravitated right during this trump era is someone who had bigotries inside them all along, and now the ground is fertile for those seeds to be planted. Trump has been a scourge on this earth, and he has also given us an opportunity to see inside the people we love for an honest look into their souls. My in-laws went from being essentially neo-liberal to incredibly progressive. Trump scared the centrist right out of them and they’ve run screaming towards socialism. My dad, on the other hand, started showing his true colors and went from seeming like a kindly old man to an overt racist. My in-laws get my kid for weekly overnights and my dad only gets supervised visitations.

Take your partner at his word. Don’t try to change him, because change comes from within. And people who are aligned with fascists will have no problem lying to get what they want. He’d know exactly what you wanted to hear to make you stay, lock you in, and wait until a kid comes so that you’re trapped in a familial connection forever.

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u/Aggravating-Walk-891 Oct 02 '22

I had to read more about her- she’s an extremist anti semitic nut basically. She used to be independent, then a democrat, then went to join Trump’s klan. She’s a total narcissist herself and extremely anti LGBTQ like the rest of the cult members. I would personally ask why he would support this person,and describe her politics in more detail, because it sounds baffling. People who support Trump and candidates like Kari Lake are not really just conservative in the sense of what it used to mean pre 2016, they are extremist psychopaths who want to start a holocaust and overturn Democracy completely, including all citizen’s voting rights.

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u/wineyb1tch Resting Witch Face Oct 02 '22

She just wants to relevant and is a garbage person 🤢 Unfortunately in AZ we are surrounded by this.

OP Please take time for you and trust your wisdom 🥹 Sending you support

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u/drewbaccaAWD Science Witch ☉ Hex Wrench Mechanic Oct 02 '22

Not sure what he's really been for the past decade but it probably wasn't liberal or progressive if he changed lanes this abruptly and decisively.

I've always been very middle of the road, centrist, moderate, independent, how ever you want to label it... and I've done a fair bit of swinging back and forth in response to the times. But when someone is hard one way and then suddenly flips the other way, then that tells me their entire political identity was built on a house of cards and not well founded.

I suspect that friend and co-worker influence is what has pushed him another direction and he doesn't understand his own liberal/progressive positions well enough to defend them when challenged by coworkers who would overwhelm him with "I did my research" kind of crap. You need to dissect why the change happened and if his opinions actually did change or just how he presents himself changed.

As mentioned above, I'm fairly centrist but I can't see myself voting for anyone with an R beside their name for the rest of my life given how off the rails the GOP has gotten. The denial of election results particularly is a MAJOR issue for me... legit "constitutional crisis" territory rather than the usual back and forth. Dobbs was overreach and abuse of power but it's the sort of thing that can be corrected while attempts to rewrite the very foundation of how our democracy works is not something that we can easily rebound from.

From where I stand, I don't see how anyone could gravitate TO the GOP instead of running away in the current environment... but I think that's a clue, perhaps Russian disinformation online has gotten to him, planting a seed in his likely cynicism. There is sadly an overlap between some very progressive Bernie supporters and Trump supporters with this anti-establishment, it's all rigged, sort of nonsense so it's not entirely impossible that he is still generally on the left but has fallen hard for that populist energy.

Anyway.. can't tell you what to do, only you can sort that out. Doesn't sound promising though. I could be in a relationship with someone I disagree with on little things but not the BIG things and I can't really imagine a vote for Lake falling under that umbrella of little things given her rhetoric.

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u/Attack-Cat- Oct 02 '22

There is a pipeline between disaffected progressivism and the right wing MAGA that many disaffected (so called) leftists follow. It usually stems from Bernie’s loss to Hillary in the 16 primary. Right wingers saw how angry many Bernie voters were and set to work. My entire in laws side voted Bernie in 16 primary, begrudgingly voted Hillary in 16, then voted MAGA by 2020 (I think one voted Jill Stein, aka Trump light).

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u/analog_ali Oct 02 '22

This. This is what I think I’m witnessing.

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u/Exotic-Huckleberry Geek Witch ♀ Oct 02 '22

I suspect that there is often some internalized misogyny involved in that pipeline because I hear a lot of “HRC isn’t likable,” but yeah. It’s shockingly common.

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u/woodsweedz Oct 02 '22

Oof. (I had to look up who Kari Lake is, she sounds awful.) Personally, I'd be so happy that he's only my fiance and end things right quick. I mean if I found out my boyfriend was planning to vote for Tudor Dixon, I'd dump his ass HARD. After kicking it. I just do not have room in my life for someone who supports that kind of candidate.

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u/malibuklw Oct 02 '22

Oh wow. Does he have any reasons that he can articulate? Could you continue to be with someone whose beliefs are so very different?

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u/bobbleheadache Oct 02 '22

I am so sorry to hear what you are going through. I'm still a novice witch so I dont know many spells. I am studying counseling though. Maybe a guided meditation might help?

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u/analog_ali Oct 02 '22

Thank you! Yours was the first response and I went to meditate last night and closed out my computer. It did help. I still feel shook, but better.

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u/bobbleheadache Oct 02 '22

Im so glad it was able to help💜 Its normal to feel a sense of betrayal for something like this. It was a very strong decision to take a step back from your partner and get a handle on your emotions before you said something you didnt mean or might regret. You have a good head on you shoulders. Whenever yall talk try using I statements like "I feel ___ when you ___" instead of You statements or name calling because those will put him automatically on the defensive. Best of luck and all good vibes your way

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u/lipgloss_addict Oct 02 '22

Yipes. Just left AZ. That is full MAGA territory now. Is he suddenly not pro choice too?

When did this start?

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u/prismaticcroissant Sapphic Witch ♀ Oct 02 '22

I would talk to him about why and get a handle on his values and explain why its problematic.

If he still insists, "Our morals and beliefs no longer align and I'm afraid we can no longer continue along this trajectory."

I've straight told my partner I'd divorce him if he ever went Trumper.

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u/Noxx_Nyxx Oct 02 '22

This is full “Bye, Bye, Bye” time. She’s horrible.

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u/madpeachiepie Oct 02 '22

I have a friend who married a conservative man. They loved each other very much but the marriage wasn't good. I think you should leave.

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u/_addycole Oct 02 '22

If he’s planning on voting for Kari Lake, what other outrageous candidates is he going to vote for? Blake Masters!?

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u/JudgeRealistic8341 Oct 02 '22

This was not THE reason, but I realized my ex husband and I moved through the world in fundamentally different ways when he supported the Kyle Rittenhouse verdict. Our politics are personal. You don’t need it, but you have permission for this to be relationship defining. As in, “this defines the end of the relationship”. You have my sympathy for your heart. I know this is hard.

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u/Attack-Cat- Oct 02 '22

Who’d he vote for in 2020?

I’m not one to say break up over politics. But this is 2022 and he is now directly voting against your rights. He is promoting and supporting views completely antithetical to yours.

People change over time and people fall for the right wing/fascist grift. Fascism is attractive, it’s why it’s fascism. Flags, slogans, hierarchy, colors…and answers that always seem to have your group as the beleaguered heroes. I see this path all the time: a Bernie Bro in 16; pissed that Hillary got the nom in 16; pissed Biden got the nom in 20; forgotten about 1/6; and has listened to enough JRE and Jordan Peterson to finally think he has to vote for republican or else he’s under attack as a man. I’m sorry he’s followed whatever pipeline he’s in to get to this point to vote for a full on MAGA acolyte, but he’s probably not the one.

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u/Vorpal_Bunny19 Geek Witch ♀ Oct 02 '22

One of these days I need to send a thank you card to Bernie Sanders because he’s how I met my husband.

In 2015 I started dating again after a divorce. Seriously dating, not just hanging out like I had been for the last year. Anywho, when my now husband sent me his first message he talked about Doctor Who for about a million pages (which was really sweet because I mentioned one sentence about the show in my profile lol). After some back and forth, I asked if he had an idea of who he wanted to vote for in the primaries. He said Bernie and I said oh hey me too… and we just got married in August ♥️

We live in NY, so if his ass told me he was voting for Lee Zeldin I’d be calling a divorce attorney so fucking fast.

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u/theladythunderfunk Oct 02 '22

Try to figure out why, but honestly....quietly start making your escape plan.

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u/SadAndConfused11 Oct 02 '22

Seems like another one lost to radicalisation of fascism. Personally I could never be with someone who didn’t value me as a full human being with agency. I would split immediately because what if you want kids and have a daughter? What if you don’t want kids and end up accidentally pregnant? How will he react? Will you become his breeding chattel? Would he abuse you? You don’t know and it’s not worth the risk imo. If he hid this for this long, what else about him is he hiding?

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u/diente_de_leon Resting Witch Face Oct 02 '22

I didn't know who that was so I had to Google it. So this woman is pro Trump, pushing the big lie that the US 2020 election was rigged because Trump lost, anti- science, COVID-19 anti-masker, pushing for horse dewormer to be made legal to treat COVID-19, anti-abortion including Medical abortions, and anti-LGBTQ. Interestingly, she has also switched political parties multiple times, going from Republican to Independent to Democrat back to Republican.

I am so sorry that this is happening. This man is telling you who he is. Sister please do everything you can to keep yourself safe. Whatever your Traditions are please use protection and purification. This is some seriously bad energy and you need to get away from it as soon as possible. To be honest I'm not sure that a person who is going to endorse all this is capable of communication. It may be that your best choice is to protect yourself and not try to reach out to him . Keep us updated so we know you're okay.

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u/faemomofdragons Oct 02 '22

I'm sorry, OP. I watched my ex sil go from being a Bernie Bro to a Trumper. Nothing I said about bots or policies changed her mind. My ex was a libertarian when I met him. Over time, I moved him left. But after the divorce he slid further right. He's a Truther and listens to Shaperio. He doesn't dare come out fully MAGA. Because our children would refuse to go over there. In fact our 12 yr old and he got into a huge fight because my 12 yr said he was embarrassed that his dad believed in conspiracy theories. The oldest 2 laugh & make fun of their dad's podcasts, so he stopped listening to them in front of our boys.

I'm in AZ too. Kari Lake is a crazy person who doesn't know the basics of state government. I know this feels hyperbolic. But, damn, if it doesn't feel like the early stages of Nazi Germany, and you're just thinking I love him but he's talking about joining this new political party run by this crazy veteran.

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u/Chemical-Studio1576 Oct 02 '22

I’d be out of that relationship in a minute. 🚩🚩🚩🚩

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u/Haschen84 Science Witch ♂️ Oct 02 '22

Kari Lake? The gubernatorial candidate from AZ? Holy fuck, thats a shit show.

I actually know a ton of Bernie Bros like him who turned to the far right after 2016 and 2020. They're really just interested in an outsider (anti-establishment) type character and aren't really a progressive. Yeah, he was never a leftist he was just tired of politicians.

I dont know how the right-wing co-opted the anti-establishment crowd because Trump is super authoritarian if anything. Its one of the greatest tricks they have played on our populace within the last decade.

If I had to guess, I would guess your bf is a disenfranchised young white guy. The far-right and a stranglehold on that demographic. I'm sorry you gotta through this. I'm afraid to say that progressive guy may have never existed. Best of luck to you though.

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u/ottereatingpopsicles Oct 02 '22

He must have kept his political views secret because he was ashamed of them right? Like on some level he knows he was wrong? But yeah, that’s a huge deal breaker for me, I’d break up

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u/Bazoun Stitch Witch ♀ Oct 02 '22

What sort of father will he make? Now that you know his true feelings, do you really want to see what his influence will do to your kids? Imagine you have a son who goes on to believe like his father - how would that make you feel? What about what this mentality would do to a little girl?

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u/MiriaTheMinx Kitchen Witch ♀♂️☉⚧ Oct 02 '22

If it is a very sudden change, ask him for a medical checkup. Sudden personality changes can indicate brain tumors or something similar.

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u/WidderWillZie Oct 02 '22

I am so sorry that you are having to confront this- Lake is a horrendous candidate. I don't want to encourage you to ignore this, but only you can gauge how invested he is at this point. If he is planning to vote for her but is not actively campaigning for her, it may be reasonable to wait out this contentious time until the election, know your vote for Hobbs will cancel his, and hope that this is a temporary madness that will clear up once results are in.

But... Lake's recent views (particularly on women) are beyond problematic. If he is actively agreeing with the viewpoints that stand directly against yours, it is completely reasonable to question whether that changes your feelings for him.

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u/bothwatchxfiles Oct 02 '22

I disagree with this ‘just put your head in the sand for a while, anyway your vote will cancel out his’. This is the fiancé! They are planning to join their lives together! How is the best case scenario net zero.

I think there is likely way more to this shift in his beliefs than has been visible. What is he reading, what is he listening to? I would assume the water has been running under the foundation for quite a while and the collapse is only now becoming visible. This would be a dealbreaker for me

22

u/imasitegazer Oct 02 '22

I also disagree with this suggestion to ostrich on this.

Him speaking up about supporting Lake is just the first fruiting mushroom of a large underground mass of mycelium fungus growing under the surface.

There is more to his conservative beliefs then just this vote. OP needs to reconsider binding her life to this unseen fungus.

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u/crawf209 Oct 02 '22

The fungus explanation is spot on. To avoid frustration and heartache, have the tough conversation with him now.

And especially if there is a potential that you will have children with this person, please do not ostrich this.

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u/WidderWillZie Oct 02 '22

Oh, completely agree! This would be a deal breaker for me. I personally would gather the printouts of some of Lake's talking points and the recent profile on her from Phoenix magazine and sit down for some uncomfortable conversations about what he finds value in there, but if he finds any value I would be done.

I simply wanted to acknowledge that this is a recent discovery in a long relationship, and so it's fair to take the time needed to reassess it through the new lenses. Removing the election from the argument just means there's no deadline to add pressure. The conversations still need to happen.

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u/imasitegazer Oct 02 '22

Great points. The election isn’t a deadline but this relationship would have an expiration date, IMHO.

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u/analog_ali Oct 02 '22

Yes, that is exactly how I read your initial comment: that the sorting through this information will take time, likely longer than the upcoming November election. *plot twist: my birthday is the day after elections

This will definitely take time. I am one who needs time and space to contemplate. I needed a long engagement to sort out a lot of my own healing before I enter into the union. We’ve been engaged for a year and have our wedding planned for next year’s Halloween weekend, shit, he’s the one who got me into my witchcraft, who encouraged my inner child to see she’s been a witch all this time.

6

u/oneofmanyany Oct 02 '22

At the least, do not marry this person. It is ok to wait five years and then see how things are going. There are no pressures on people these days to marry, unlike in olden times.

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u/AsherTheFrost Science Witch ♂️ Oct 02 '22

I would ask for his reasons, see if he can be reasoned with. If he can't, you may have to cut him loose.

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u/cheeruphumanity Oct 02 '22

This communicational guide can help you to reach him.

https://mindfulcommunications.eu/en/prevent-radicalization

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u/analog_ali Oct 02 '22

Thank you, I have this saved to read though thoroughly

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u/JeremyJaLa Oct 02 '22

Call off the engagement. But seriously, She’s an awful person. I hope you and your fiancé come to an understanding and he sees the error of his ways.

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u/phaserdust Oct 02 '22

Some people just buckle to the pressure. There is nothing more disappointing than seeing someone you have loved or nurtured change their affiliation. I hate it, I have lost alot of friends since the whole MAGA craze. I just see alot of fear and things going backwards for these people.

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u/Tyrannical-Totodile Oct 02 '22

Bruh. I just found out my ex has an Mgtow/red pill mindset and I didn't know for two years. That shit is fucking crazy to find out and I'm sorry. The cognitive dissonance is so real

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u/Sportyyyy Oct 02 '22 edited Oct 02 '22

If he's capable of swinging to the opposite end of the spectrum he was never liberal/progressive.

If he's trying to hide his views from you that's a really bad sign, much worse than if he was upfront with them.

Ask yourself "Why is he avoiding discussing his beliefs with me and what does he get out of keeping his beliefs a secret?"

Core moral beliefs don't change, do you want to spend time trying to "fix" someone so weak minded he can't emphasize with half of the world's population?

Have the conversation with him, ask him very basic questions like the ones I mentioned above but be prepared to hear illogical reasoning or even worse, not much at all. Start coming to terms with your two potential courses of action: staying with him or leaving him.

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u/06534956 Oct 02 '22

My husband and I vote differently and follow completely different media channels, I’m more liberal and left leaning and he is are very conservative.

It doesn’t make a difference in how we view each other or anything like that. We agree on most issues, just have different ideas about how to get there.

At the end of the day, having peace in my house is the most important thing and has the biggest impact on my life and life. He agrees, and wants me to be happy and comfortable.

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u/Will2x99 Oct 02 '22

One of the underlying motivations for people who support MAGA and the policies of TFG is they think they are some kind of counter culture revolutionary. They think because they are going against the grain of rational thought that somehow they are smarter than everyone else, because they don’t go along with popular sentiment. These are people that need and crave attention, they want your outrage or your stunned reaction. The people I’m talking about are the ones that don’t appear to be mysogynistic or outwardly racist or bigoted, but in reality they have an ounce of it growing inside them like a tumor that could become a full blown cancer.

The only thing you’re going to have to ask yourself about marrying this person is: do I want to take the time to bring this person back from the abyss? Do I want to give them that attention they so desperately need? If you waver on either question, you need to get out before too much time passes. I don’t think people who support TFG, or candidates like Kari Webb are DEFINITELY bigots, or mysogynist. I am 100% sure of one thing, that THEY are okay with both.

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u/oneofmanyany Oct 02 '22

My partner was originally a centrist like me but over the years he became further and further to the right. If I had the choice back then, knowing what I know now, I would not have done this again. You still have time to back out. At least postpone any wedding plans until you have time to understand this thinking better. Kari Lake is one of the craziest of them all, spouting lies constantly. Unfortunately she has the same advantage that Trump had, which is she is on TV a lot.

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u/TipsyBaker_ Oct 02 '22

Make him explain exactly why he's choosing that option. Be prepared for the worst outcome.

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u/Alias_Black Green Witch the Zen Karen Oct 02 '22

To keep calm & centered in this trying time, I would recommend the book -Art of Communicating by Thich Nhat Hanh. It is available as a free audio book on YouTube. It provides numerous skills to facilitate the hard conversations. Regular mindfulness practice such as Breathing and walking meditation is also helpful pre- conversation. In an old book by Robin Wood called When Why If has a section on grounding. It is important to stay grounded & centered in your conversation. If he is on that crazy train & refuses reason, it is time to let him go to avoid a lifetime of misery. Love yourself more, love yourself first. You are responsible for your happiness. Best of luck to you.

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u/SimilarSilver316 Oct 02 '22

Supporting Bernie and right wing conspiracies is I have heard typical Joe Rogan. I have never listened to him but once exclaimed to a friend “he supports Bernie but also (list of conspiracy theories)” and was instantly told that’s Joe Rogan. Many men with offensive politics try and hide them from women because they know we are over that shit.

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u/MikeyMikeyMotorcycly Oct 02 '22

I was also absolutely resentful of the DNC after what they did to Bernie. It showed a dangerous disrespect for democracy & played a part in all that has happened since, on a much smaller scale of course. It cost Dems & the country YUGELY !

Regardless I think OP really needs to consider this as a telltale sign of incompatibility. I know the heart ♥️ wants what it wants. Sadly this has future heart break written all over it. I grew up conservative & catholic. I am presently liberal & agnostic. This has greatly effected all my long term relationships with friends and family. This difference in ideologies is massive and will grow more so over time.

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u/Avlonnic2 Oct 02 '22

“He’s very open to articulate why with his brother and his friend who are similarly minded, with me it’s been more vague.”

Can you tell us what he explained as the reasons his brother and his friend plan to vote Lake-Trump?

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u/jaman4dbz Oct 02 '22

Just to be clear, the democrats are NOT progressive. None of them actually are. Just like none of the liberals in my state of Canada are progressive.

That said, supporting a candidate against basic human rights is much worst than not voting.

If one doesnt have a clear candidate they approve of, then dont vote.

In Ontario we had by far the lowest turn out for our provincial elections, because their were too few candidates worth voting for. We had a good mpp in centretown ottawa and because of that we had the highest turn out in the province and elected an NDP w decent values.

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u/cinedemon Oct 02 '22

Lots of great advice here but I wanted to share something I’ve heard before that has served me many times and that is: when someone shows you who they are, believe them

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u/Dick-the-Peacock Oct 02 '22

The Bernie to right wing pipeline is real. Because a certain segment of “progressives” make the DNC into a boogeyman even more compelling than the real enemy of progress, which is conservatism. “Owning the line” becomes more important ideologically than actual politics and policies. I’m sorry your boyfriend fell down that rabbit hole.

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u/Direct-Author-9075 Oct 02 '22

I mean, US progressivism / liberalism has always been pretty centre/right wing if we are being completely honest… so, as the general political discourse is starting to shift towards conservatism, libertarianism, nationalism etc. and as the symptoms of a neoliberal society get worse, many once socially progressive (but still economically neoliberal people, thats the key issue here) start to find comfort in right wing narratives, attempting to protect their privileged status quo. What I’m trying to say is that I wouldn’t be too surprised in your position, this is sadly a wider trend.

Do try to talk to him, maybe advise him to read some critical theory, if he’s just consuming world news without a solid base in political theory he might struggle immensely when trying to understand your position and disappointment.

Either way good luck, and I’m sorry :/

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u/analog_ali Oct 02 '22

Yes, I’ve seen this too. I still am flabbergasted. He’s been post-neoliberalism on his stance. He has always looked closely at the economic power struggle and is meticulous about following his sources and piecing apart information vs disinformation. He is still so anti neoliberal so I don’t understand what has happened.

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u/Redleadercockpit Oct 02 '22

Have a compassionate discussion to try to understand their point of view. Don't interject your opinions, just really try to listen, ask questions, and give them the floor to flesh this out.

Sometimes explaining yourself to someone helps to understand how shallow and flawed our opinions can be.

But, I would be very hesitant to commit to someone who has looked at the last 6 years or so and has tilted towards Kari BDE Lake.

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u/ChampismyPuppy Oct 02 '22

I've never heard of Kari Lake? Maybe have a heart to heart with your partner and try to see why they had a sudden change. I wouldn't jump to anything especially if your partner has voted more liberal/progressive in the past. If it comes down to the two of you not being compatible try to end things civil and cut your losses. Yes 7 years is a long time but, if it's something that could build resentment and held against either of you later on best end it.

I'll admit lately I haven't been able to watch or hear anything political so I avoid it. It makes me way way to anxious and I don't want my blood pressure to spike.

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u/analog_ali Oct 02 '22

I’ve been the same way lately, which is another reason why I feel like the ground I’m standing on is so shaky as well. My doctor actually told me to get a handle on my stress and ordered me to mediate— my cortisol levels were dangerously high and affecting my adrenals and thyroid to such a high degree. I’ve been trying to strike a balance with news consumption, and have walked away completely from social media platforms (is Reddit one?). But it’s been very difficult to voice my stance since it’s so intensely emotional for me and I feel out of touch since turning away from politics for my health. I don’t have a good feeling about our future conversation.

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u/MizzGee Oct 02 '22

It is one thing to be fiscally conservative. I can understand that. We can argue about how much to spend on roads, bridges, healthcare. Those arguments can feel like value judgements as well, and we can certainly judge a person. But if it is because it is mainly about money and taxes, it can be reasoned. The last few years hasn't been like this. Some of the things I have seen my friends and family support are not about politics, but about morals. It is about how we treat one another. I would be disturbed about loving someone who supports Kari Lake unless they could explain point by point how they feel about all the statements.

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u/Bulbul3131 Oct 02 '22

I mean Republicans aren’t fiscally conservative though. They just say that. Also, my friend said something to me when I realized my ex would still vote Republican after they started taking away medical rights of women in Texas. She said that all he is saying is his tax return is more important than human rights. That will stick with me forever.

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u/MizzGee Oct 02 '22

They used to be. I am old. I remember when there were pro-choice Republicans, environmentally-friendly Republicans. It used to be business, trade, small government.

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u/mischief-mo Oct 02 '22

It’s interesting that you mention the constant media streaming. It’s very well known that YouTube algorithms will over time take you from one end of a spectrum to an incredibly dark opposite. Like videos of cute animals to videos of dogfights and other animal abuse. I suspect that all media has a tendency to do this when it is consumed too much and platforms allowed to just load the next thing. On top of that, I absolutely believe that humans are incredibly vulnerable to the power of groupthink and manipulation. It seems that no matter what you think initially, if you put yourself in an environment that espouses views you do not initially agree with, and you stay in that environment thinking you can “agree to disagree“, overtime the influence of constantly hearing those things you disagree with will creep in. They will become normalized and suddenly your views are very different than the ones you started out with. If there is a community around the platform you you’re exposing yourself to, the mirroring effect is incredibly strong. So to me it sounds like something like this has happened to your partner at a vulnerable time in his life, and slowly enough that he thinks he’s in the driver’s seat.

It happened to me briefly as a kid when I was desperate for belonging and became overly influenced by Christianity to the point of wanting to be baptized into my friend’s church. I noticed the leaching away of myself in favor of what I heard there and fortunately it disturbed me enough to set me on a different path. With cases like this, I’m at a loss. The DT-GOP is a death cult, and I can’t claim to know how to help. Your grief is so valid, and while I think it’s possible for someone to come out of this back to themselves, they have to want to. I know there are former DT and Q-anon supporters out there who have “snapped out of it” and now work on trying to help others deprogram- maybe you can find resources there?

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u/be_steve_it_or_not Oct 02 '22

I’m a couples/family counselor and I’ve seen a lot of this lately.

I don’t know your situation. I am a counselor but not your counselor. What I’ve observed is that the couples that stay together are able to hold space for one another, and they’re only about to do this by supercharging their curiosity and empathy and by doing the difficult work of giving the other person the space to be themselves.

The couples whom I’ve seen either breaking up or just shutting down over political differences are the ones who try desperately to figure out how to fix the other person. (Generally speaking in relationships, solutions are at the root of problems.)

Another commenter suggested putting to him the question of “are you damn sure Kari Lake is worth losing our relationship?” I would ask you to weigh whether attempting to “fix” his political views is worth losing the relationship. Your answer may very well be yes, and that’s a valid choice!

Just know that healing and fixing are two very different things.

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u/analog_ali Oct 02 '22

Thank you for this. I do want to meet him half way with curiosity, very neutral and very kind curiosity. I do have a counselor and try my best at my own personal practice.

I don’t think I want to try “fixing” him. His viewpoints on everything from movies to politics has helped me to contemplate my own ideas and opinions, how I form them and why, and what it is I’d like to mirror in myself. I do like that. He has never tried to fix me. I love that.

I just want to understand where he’s coming from, where he’s located in this issue, and why.

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u/be_steve_it_or_not Oct 02 '22

It sounds like you are both equipped to do this work. It’s damned difficult work seeing others as people first (before ideologies) these days when the stakes seem so high. Best of luck.

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u/TheTransAgendaIsLove Oct 02 '22

this is who he really is, he was never liberal or progressive he just lied. there is no fixing this relationship and i hope you can cut him out of your life quickly and cleanly.

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u/rookieoo Oct 02 '22

You're making assumptions about people you don't know and giving horrible advice based on those assumptions.

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u/TheTransAgendaIsLove Oct 02 '22

if someone supports republicans they are evil and there is no room to argue otherwise at this point. I agree I am making an assumption based on one fact i know about this person but that one fact in undeniably telling and i feel it justifies that assumption.

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u/rookieoo Oct 02 '22

Ok, believe the thing about Republicans being evil, but you can't claim he was lying and was never progressive. Ignoring that doesn't help identifying others who may go down that road. It's a false assumption that makes communication harder, precisely when empathetic communication is needed. I would suggest looking for more constructive ways of dealing with these kinds of situations.

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u/charles_osha Oct 02 '22

I don’t think teenager me was evil. I think I was lost, misguided, hurt, and misinformed. The whole black and white view is really unhelpful if you want to help people. The people who helped changed my views didn’t just write me off as evil.

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u/StorytellerElla Kitchen Witch ♀ Oct 02 '22

maybe, Just MAYBE. i dunno... talk to them about it!?

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u/Serious_stuff_ Oct 02 '22

Love is healing, love is kind

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u/noteveryagain Oct 02 '22

You are describing how I felt after the 2016 election. I felt like I had gone through a breakup, I didn’t feel like I could trust anyone. I I stayed in bed for three days. It made me feel naive, not knowing this many people would vote for such a man.

I do believe some far right wingers of my family would vote for Bernie if they didn’t know who was putting up the policies, especially those folks living in rural areas.

That being said, have you taken the temperature on his opinion of the draconian abortion law now in place? All republicans are backing away from the issue (not sure if Lake is), because they know choice is a popular position.

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u/deurts Oct 02 '22

Lol “just dump him” as if it’s that easy of a solution. Maybe just have a conversation about both of your values and where you stand on them. Find out what made him vote for her and see if there’s any underlying issues that would effect the relationship. If he’s always been progressive then he definitely hasn’t become some “bigoted” person out of the blue. There’s a lot that can go into a vote and a deeper conversation about values is really all that’s needed IMO

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u/MedicalUnprofessionl Science Witch ♂️ Oct 02 '22

Build two podiums out of cardboard and have a debate on the issues. Show him that he’s hype voting.

Tbh idk if that’s a good idea though. I just like to be funny in these sad times.

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u/rookieoo Oct 02 '22

Could you post some of his new views/ reasoning for his vote? Could help us understand the situation better.

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u/IgnitionPenguin Oct 02 '22

This sounds devastating and hard OP.

I think the mental health of far more people than we’ll ever understand have suffered dramatically from the pandemic with the resultant fundamental restructuring of our lives and how it has influenced the way we think and behave. You’re not alone in your experience of seeing somebody close to you changing in fundamental and alarming ways in the last two years. I hope you’re able to reach them and I hope the person you remember and love is still in there and willing/able to come back. And if they’re too far gone or unwilling… You deserve to surround yourself with a partner and community that values and respects you and what you value.

(I’m thinking about the people that suddenly found themselves with dramatically fewer direct social interactions w/ people of different lives and experiences to chat with and be influenced by. And then replacing those voices and faces with Joe freaking Rogan or worse. The empathy muscle atrophies w/o the casual, easy engagement that had previously been baked into the everyday. Not sure that’s OP’s situation but I’d be shocked if it wasn’t at least a minor factor in his radicalization/pivot of values)

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