r/WitchesVsPatriarchy Oct 02 '22 Helpful 1 Take My Energy 3 Heartwarming 1 Got the W 1

Many feminists and activists are silent about Iran’s feminist revolution because they’re afraid of being labeled by Islamophobia, I’m an ex-muslim, what the hell is Islamophobia? Discussion

Note: removed previous post because I used the term Woke in wrong context (I don’t live in the US and didn’t know it implies as negative). Apologies about that.

Iranian women and people are fighting the biggest feminist movement in the heart of Middle East, where patriarchy have been ruling for centuries and yet many feminists and activists are silent because they are afraid of being labeled by islamophobia.

I'm an Iranian, I was born and raised in a practicing Muslim family, I grew out of the religion when I started understanding the rules and laws. I have read Quran many times. I can't understand the term Islamophobia used in the west. Islam has certain rules that I can talk about on and on, but it also has certain stories about Homosexuality, and women rights. It's literally written there. Quran ch4:34 is literally saying Men are in charge of women by [right of] what Allah has given, can own them, and if women disobey them they can beat them as punishment. Same chapter verse 24 says you can't sleep with married women, unless they are captive in your hands, seized in a holy war (a war against Islam) which is technically a permission to rape. There are stories in various chapters about Lot, a prophet that his people were gay (attracted to men) and he asked God to punish them because they act was dirty and unnatural and God rained stones on them and they all died to be a lesson to the others.

To all feminists and activists, imagine a famous comedian takes the stage and says we should kill the gays and beat women if they disobey men and rape them if we took them captive in war (HAHA!), you would fucking cancel them to their death. But at the same time, that's what you are defending under the label of Islamophobia.

Wake up please. People of Iran are not against Islam (however problematic it would be as a religion), people want freedom and freedom of expression. We don't want a minority force us to practice their religion, government is even forcing Islamic laws like Hijab to Christians and Jews in Iran. Trevor Noah explained it in this video very clearly and I'm surprised how well we communicated our message this time.

Disclaimer: I'm ok with Muslims and specially my Muslim family, they can practice what ever they want as long as they do not harass me (It's not the same for many other atheist Muslim born people), but I can not take it when people try to hide the truth and take shelter behind labels. Why criticising Christianity is not labeled by Christianophobia, but the same doesn't go with Islam?

2.4k Upvotes

825

u/Accurate-Tell8 Oct 02 '22

Huh? Most US feminists and activists I’ve seen are openly supportive of the movement in Iran. It’s all over social media and in the news. I’m sure there are some that might fit the description you provided, but I imagine they are the minority.

168

u/secretactorian Oct 02 '22

Yeah, this is actually what I'm seeing too

147

u/No_Growth6200 Oct 02 '22

The posts I have seen are about how in Iran they want the choice to take them off and in France they want the choice to put them on. I thought the support was showing choice for all women.

I also saw a post saying we should be paying attention to Iranian protestors and what they are saying rather than making new posts from the American point of view. Maybe this is coming across as not being supportive?

128

u/hoseiin Oct 02 '22

I’ve seen many supporters within US community and I am very grateful for their support, but the number of silent people are not that few.

71

u/Caftancatfan Oct 02 '22

It’s because the right has traditionally taken any legitimate criticism of Islam and weaponized it, particularly if it has to do with women. It has been a dog whistle: “those barbarians are abusing their women so it’s kind of ok that we terrorize the region. We’re helping because we care so much about women’s rights!!” But they really don’t, and it’s just an excuse.

My sense is that most people are supportive but there’s a desire to be supportive in a way that doesn’t trigger full on bigotry. It’s more a feeling of not wanting to get this wrong, maybe?

For my part, I fully support the protests and have been moved by the bravery of these women.

49

u/AtalanAdalynn Oct 02 '22

There's also the right wing's favorite: "See how badly women are treated there? You have it good here, stop asking for [x], [y], and [z] and be happy you don't live there."

20

u/Caftancatfan Oct 02 '22

Patriarchy is the gift that keeps on giving.

17

u/KingdomCome0 Oct 03 '22

In South America too! Many conservatives keep saying that the women in Iran are the true feminists unlike us, the ones living in the west. Instead of uniting each other they tear us down.

57

u/barbaric_valkyrie Bi Witch ♀ Oct 02 '22

I can't talk about the US but I'm in Europe and over here we've had several marches and protests, women burning their hijabs and posting it all on social media, there's news coverage every day and my country's PM has publicly denounced what happened, the minister of external affairs called a meeting with the Iran ambassador (who went on an interview on TV basically saying nothing happened and Western media are overreacting, he got a mouthful from the interviewer though)...

I mean, I'm sure more things can be done and I'd love to hear what else we can do but people are reacting to this. And despite how much I hate to say this we can only go so far from here, I'd guess the UN could probably help but I doubt it (weapons trade and all getting in the way sadly)

139

u/[deleted] Oct 02 '22

[removed] — view removed comment

41

u/lokipukki Oct 02 '22

To be fair, I think a lot of the “silence” on the women in Iran fighting for their right to not cover their hair is due to the fact that many people simply do not know enough or understand what is happening and why. I will always support my fellow witches regardless of nationality, religion, race, gender, etc. I may not always voice my support, but I will always stand up for people to choose how they live their lives free of oppression. If I’m unsure of why someone is fighting for something, I will learn why and what is the best way to support them? Do not think silence is always allowance. It is not.

4

u/[deleted] Oct 02 '22

[removed] — view removed comment

17

u/[deleted] Oct 02 '22

[removed] — view removed comment

1

u/[deleted] Oct 02 '22

[removed] — view removed comment

15

u/[deleted] Oct 02 '22

[removed] — view removed comment

12

u/sketch Oct 02 '22

Where are you seeing it on the news? There's hardly any news coverage on this, including about the 150+ protest rallies that occurred all over the world yesterday. Thousands of people have been arrested, dozens or more killed, there are people on death row for being gay, people are unable to reach their families to even know if they're alive. The majority of the information I'm seeing is on social media.

23

u/bicyclecat Oct 02 '22

I get my TV news from PBS and it’s gotten a lot of coverage.

2

u/JagmeetSingh2 Oct 08 '22 edited Oct 08 '22

Right lol

>Many feminists and activists are silent about Iran’s feminist revolution because they’re afraid of being labeled by Islamophobia,

it's been beating out the Ukrainian war coverage in some aspects OP is just trying to insult westerners for some reason...the other comments about

>I’ve seen many supporters within US community and I am very grateful for their support, but the number of silent people are not that few.

Okay you know how many Americans were silent during the George Floyd protests too? Not everyone has the capacity or knowledge to speak on every topic OP is grasping at straws.

1

u/enkay999 Oct 11 '22

"Grasping at straws?" Wow.. If they wanted to stay silent..Fine However, Funny how they all had the 'capacity' to defend islam, fund media for it, make world hijab day, promote islam, slogans against "islamophobia", banning us from speaking.

A lot of us have decade worth of evidence of this betrayal. Won't be erased like that

0

u/[deleted] Oct 11 '22

[removed] — view removed comment

1

u/[deleted] 6d ago

[removed] — view removed comment

1

u/enkay999 6d ago

I've gathered evidence of this for over a decade. Western lib feminists who are pro islam are the majority, they have sent us threats, doxxed ex muslim women, banned us. They destroyed my mental health. They can downvote me now for this, when they were downvoting me for "islamophobia" weeks ago!! Just 2 weeks ago, I got banned from yet another lib sub. Do they think we don't keep proof?..

1

u/Zombie-Happy 6d ago

Look how they behave to brave Somali ex-muslim Ayan Hirsan Ali, she must live under constant threat of death through fatwa, with guards which means without privacy and in constant fear because nothing can guarantee her guards will be able to save her, on the other hand you got militant jihadi US female senator who is in "woke" Democrat Party, what a joke, i don't remember her name, google her if you want , she's a muslim woman in her 40s with hijab, she in many instances praises terrorists and jihadi salafi groups

1

u/enkay999 5d ago

I often think of that.. how much trust can she and others like her, like Yasmeen Mohamed, put in guards?. A sniper could easily target anyone no matter how many guards are there. Me getting just threatened with doxxing by liberals who called me "islamophobic liar" when mentioning hijab is a tool of misogyny, made me in constant anxiety & panic. I can only imagine what these women & others deal with. Openly, bravely saying everything..with Salman Rushdie's recent stabbing. Yes, that Ilhan Omar... I despise her. She's..something. They've all always had a special effect on my blood pressure. Her lib fans, including here, really expect us to ignore voting her in, their "world hijab days" campaigns, "hijab is an empowering choice".. or "Islamophobia awareness month" AND a separate day. A term THEY came up with. Also libs in Boston wanted Irani Mahsa Amini's birthday to be Boston's own hijab day... The calculated campaigns and videos with millions of views. All the bans towards us, all the threats.. all because just now... their highnesses decided to show false, fake temporary concern over Iranian women. Right.. Switching pawn pieces, It's all a vicious bloody political game. The more bans, gaslighting & denial of the blood on their hands, the angrier we as ex-muslims will backfire at them with all the life time of evidence against them. So I guess it's good they have no shame to flaunt their arrogance. A lot of us are fed up in seclusion, gave up on half "lives", so nothing to lose.

276

u/CopperPegasus Oct 02 '22 Starry

If I may interject a thought I haven't seen raised here.

The US tends to be a bit silent on a lot of things dealing with the Middle East (specifically), because it doesn't like when scholars hit back to point out that a lot of the WORSENING of rigid religious doctranisim there has been bolstered by US intervention in the area and who it supported where.Many of the most intolerant modern Islamic groups would not have gained the traction they did without the oil-seeking fiddling in the area in the 60s-90s.

Obviously the religion overall, as with all texts of that age, suffers from being the social construct of a time period where people, especially women, were chattel. The bible and even the Torah is not exempt from this either. That's a whole different, if also worthy, debate, and why even if you have religious leanings you shouldn't be clinging to flawed, reinterpreted, retranslated, and socially based 2000+ year old doctrines as the 'true and final' word of anything.

But a lot of the very worst, most literal, vicious, and cruel interpretations of Islam now floating around the Middle Eastern area (specifically, not addressing Indonesia or the wider Muslim diaspora which, as with Christianity, tend to have softened their approaches to religious literalisim a bit) have a lot to 'thank' the US and its interference there for. And having that raised doesn't suit either political side in the US currently

24

u/IotaCandle Oct 02 '22

Most of it really is the consequence of the Saudi plan of making their ultraconservative interpretation of Islam the norm. Estimates vary but they spent tens of billions on it, which is by very far the most expensive political or propaganda campaign I ever heard about.

Of course that money didn't grow on trees, and is the result of their collaboration with the UK and especially the US with regards to oil.

4

u/CopperPegasus Oct 03 '22

Thank you for adding some extra to my comments. And yes, that's the thrust of what I was trying to say. The ones merely here to hate on comments that mention the US seem to be missing that entirely. Glad someone got it.

141

u/OfLiliesAndRemains Oct 02 '22

And the reason why the US really doesn't want people to talk about this is because most movements leading to the emancipation of minorities and women in the middle east and other majority Islamic countries were invariably Socialist movements. And they simply do not want to mention socialists doing good things and then the US stopping them just because they feared the popularity of socialism

30

u/CopperPegasus Oct 02 '22

Also a very good point.

9

u/djmcfuzzyduck Oct 03 '22

From the US, I feel like we have no room to talk.

3

u/CopperPegasus Oct 03 '22

Not from the US myself, and yeah- I can see that interpretation too. Many of the extreme policies going into play in the US r.n. are just the worst of Sharia-from-another-angle, sadly.

5

u/almopo Oct 03 '22

As an Iranian-American...STOP ALWAYS MAKING THIS ABOUT AMERICA!!! You know us middle easterners have plenty of our own agency. The power to build ourselves up, and the power to tear ourselves down. Not all of it is some.reaction to "oil seeking fiddling in the area in the 60s-90s."

Btw that quote is doubly untrue since the worst "oil seeking fiddling" the US did to Iran was to instigate a coup...in 1953. So stop rattling off things you don't know about.

5

u/CopperPegasus Oct 03 '22

The OP is asking WHY the Larger World ignores activities in the area.

As a history scholar I added ONE fact to the conversation that is both true and relevant.- because the original conversation is why the WIDER WORLD ignores happenings there, not the picture of the intricate politics of the area. Kinda hard not to make it about the behavior of one of the biggest Western powers...when the question is specifically about a thing countries-who-aren't-local-to-the-Middle-East do, no?

And just so you know, I'm South African, so yelling at me about America is a little counterproductive.

While I admire your ferocity in self determination, try apply it to more appropriate targets.

-4

u/RunThisRunThat41 Oct 03 '22

But a lot of the very worst, most literal, vicious, and cruel interpretations of Islam now floating around the Middle Eastern area (specifically, not addressing Indonesia or the wider Muslim diaspora which, as with Christianity, tend to have softened their approaches to religious literalisim a bit) have a lot to 'thank' the US and its interference there for. And having that raised doesn't suit either political side in the US currently

This might be the most ignorant thing I've read this week. Go read up on religious history. The violence that exists with Christianity and Islam has been around well before the US existed or was even known North America existed

Seriously though, why do white Americans think the entire history of the planet revolves around them? It's incredibly fascinating

4

u/CopperPegasus Oct 03 '22

Not an American and, while pale, arguably not white either.

And the contribution of Western Tinkering to the rise of extreme Sharia in Saudi, particularly, is a fact, whether you like it or not.

I touched on the wider historical violence of both religions, but the OOPs question is about why a lot of the world ignores the happenings in the area. This particular fact is relevant to THAT conversation. It doesn't pretend to encompass the entirety of the body of scholarship on religious violence.

I honestly despair of some of the 'come only to fight' diatribes people launch without a minutes thought or understanding. Reading comprehension is on a decline, it seems.

3

u/Alice_Oe Oct 03 '22

You do understand that for most of the past thousand years, Islam was incredibly tolerant and allowed minorites to live freely within its borders? That is how it managed to grow and expand to cover North Africa, the middle East and most of India while not getting rid of the native religions (Christianity, by contrast, was incredibly intolerant).

The recent surge in far right extremism within Islam is just that - recent. The very fact that most people think Islam has always been as fucked up as it is today is a huge victory for their propaganda I guess...

Disclaimer: I am an atheist and no fan of any organized religion.

1

u/Zombie-Happy 6d ago

You speaking nonsense, muslims killed hundreds of millions of Hindu in India, the biggest mountain range there is called Hindukush which means slaughter of Hindu. In India, for example is 12 % of muslims and in Pakistan is 0,001 % of Hindu. Whole middle east and north Africa was christian and today are almost christian non-existent there, except in Egypt-10 % and killed and persecuted every day, so in Iraq , Jordan, Syria.Balkan countries were invaded by Turkey for hundreds of years and in every country there christians were either decimated or expelled, that's why in 19th century when these countries liberated christians were revenging and expelled them to Turkey

152

u/DPVaughan Oct 02 '22

I'm not defending if people haven't been speaking up (I have a student who filled me in on everything happening over there before it blew up in the world-wide news), but I have an explanation for why I think it's happening.

I suspect it's because the way Muslims (and anyone who "looks" Muslim, whatever that means) have been treated in the West since the 11 September 2001 World Trade Centre attacks. Harassed, assaulted, "randomly" checked by the police or airport security, etc.

Islam is a minority religion in Western countries and so normally when people criticise it it's considered punching down (see also Trump's ban of migrants from Muslim-majority countries --- that's the form it often takes).

But you're right that in places like Iran the government and religious establment should be criticised. I'm sorry we're not doing enough to support women and girls over there.

32

u/Purplekaem Oct 02 '22

Honestly, this is exactly my concern. I’m worried about damaging the image of Muslims in the US. They endured so much and many evil people are just awaiting an excuse to be the horrible human they are at their core.

6

u/DPVaughan Oct 03 '22

The thing is, horrible people will do that with or without an excuse.

27

u/TheEmpressDodo Resting Witch Face Oct 02 '22

I see plenty of feminists sharing the news and vocalizing their support.

77

u/thiefspy Oct 02 '22

You’ve gotten some insightful responses here, so I’ll just add that in addition to all the other reasons listed, people are burnt out. They are exhausted from fighting for their own rights and the rights of their families and the pandemic and regional disasters. And a lot of what has happened in the last six or so years has made people feel like nothing they do matters. Many people are pulling back on social media because they’re exhausted and because they’ve realized it’s not healthy for them. Many of these people choose to support in other ways, such as in-person conversations, volunteering, and donations. So what you see on the internet is really only the tip of the iceberg of support.

38

u/What_Larks_Pip_ Oct 02 '22 edited Oct 02 '22

Just wanted to echo, my sister and I had a conversation the other day where we talked about exactly what you mentioned. It’s compassion fatigue. Not that people don’t believe what is happening is wrong, we’re just tired of witnessing things like this. I think some people are trying to limit their news intake and follow more local stories, especially when they feel like that’s all that matters in terms of how you can make a difference. Plus, if you come from a conservative family, a lot of times you are picking your battles and still dealing with fallout from when you vocally supported BLM back in 2020, or opposition to Trump from 2015-2019, or trying to convince family to get vaccinated and take COVID seriously for the past 3 years. A lot of family members won’t talk with you anymore and it comes down to protecting yourself and conserving/regaining energy.

1

u/Zombie-Happy 6d ago

People who refused to vaccinate are real heroes , that vaccine is killing hundreds of people every day

17

u/ohno_spaghetti_o Oct 02 '22

I tend to use the internet to gather information and read others perspectives and protest in person nased in what support they want.

I am not American so I listen to american issues and support IRL. The conversation about what feminism and human rights looks to them should be lead by them and I will support that. I am not Iranian so I listen to Iranian issues and support IRL. The conversation about what feminism and human rights looks to them should be lead by them and I will support that.

I would ask that my knowledge, passion, leadership and the fact I will be the one living the change be respected in the same way with issues in my country. I am not going to tell another woman what to do or take away her voice. Social media is a way for me to listen and support, my activism is an IRL thing. I have all the time in the world for protests, and fundraisers, and pressuring real people. I have no energy for 'online battles' that don't make any difference IRL.

257

u/couldbeyouornot Artsy Witch ♀♂️☉⚧ Oct 02 '22

I honestly think most Americans (specifically) don't actually understand the difference between Islam and Islamism, and even less so what it means in the east, so they just don't say anything at all.

49

u/teddybearcastles Oct 02 '22

Can you explain the difference?

159

u/MorganaMevil Oct 02 '22

Islam is the religion which holds tenemos on non-coercion, acceptance of other religions, and anti-violence. Islam is a peaceful religion.

Islamism is a political ideology that perverts Islam by stripping it down to controlling tenets and forcing members of its society to follow them or be hurt. It’s the use of a religion for the sake of power. (Not unlike how Christianity is used in the west.)

69

u/OfLiliesAndRemains Oct 02 '22

to be honest though, the term Islamism is basically a form of Islamophobia in of itself. Because it we don't do the same with Christianity. We do not call christian fascists Christianists, or christian fascism Christianism. This creates this distance between the political ideologies of the west, and those of majority Islamic countries to imply that the evils of the "Islamist" states are unique to Islam. In fact, I'm pretty sure the term was specifically created to invoke fear of Islam in European people over the growing Muslim minority in Europe, basically using great replacement theory as it's basis. And the fact that western people have been trained for quite a while now to have negative association with "isms" (See this 1948 American propaganda cartoon for example)

Fundamentally, the problem of "Islamist" nations is fascism. Their fascism is flavored slightly differently than ours, but it is just fascism. The reason people focused on the term Islamism was specifically to make people afraid of Islam, by implying Islam naturally concludes in Islamism

32

u/MorganaMevil Oct 02 '22

I agree in some regards, though not all. I have definitely heard the term “Christian facism” and “fundamentalist Christians” before, though definitely not to the same degree as I do with Islam. That said, I think it’s because Christian facism has more direct control here and part of its smear campaign is against other religions. I would posit that in countries with a much high Muslim population, terms like “Christian facism” would become more common than “Islamic facism”.

That is not to say that there’s still not some Islamophobia likely embedded in the term “Islamism”, and I’d be remiss if I said I don’t really use that term. But, I think people need to start understanding that religion and the governments who use them are not one in the same. Because, sadly, the vast majority of Americans (and Europeans) genuinely believe that Islam is a violent, forceful religion that strips women of their rights and encourages the murder of “infadels” (while it obviously doesn’t)

17

u/OfLiliesAndRemains Oct 02 '22

Oh there is definitely mention of christian fascism, I didn't mean to imply otherwise. I've even heard colorful terms terms like "Y'allqaeida", which is kind of a funny pun. But that's the point. somehow, when we do it it's christian fascism, but when they do it it's Islamism instead of Islamic fascism.

And I wholeheartedly believe that you are right on separating the idea of religion and what theocratic regimes claim their religion is. In fact, I don't really believe that there is such a thing of "actual Islam", or "actual Christianity". Whether we like it or not, religion is always unique to the individual. No one can ever claim to be a believer in the true version of any religion they did not make up themselves. Because the whole point of religion is it's improvability. Once we can prove a theory it's science. So religions automatically pertains just to what we cannot know, only believe. But believing will always be a private process. at least until we figure out how to do telepathy through some means...

16

u/konskaya_zalupa Oct 02 '22

No it is not, I'm an atheist and islam says it's ok to kill me.

13

u/incipit-satan Oct 03 '22

There it fucking is.

The Quran literally says to "kill all unbelievers".

It's not phobic or racist to despise this, or any major religion.

4

u/LilRustique Oct 03 '22

You are, sadly, absolutely right. This is an interesting subject, for the exact reasoning OP has drawn attention to. The bible has many very similar passages, for example:

Deuteronomy 13:6-11 “If your brother, the son of your mother, or your son or your daughter or the wife you embrace or your friend who is as your own soul entices you secretly, saying, ‘Let us go and serve other gods,’ which neither you nor your fathers have known, some of the gods of the peoples who are around you, whether near you or far off from you, from the one end of the earth to the other, you shall not yield to him or listen to him, nor shall your eye pity him, nor shall you spare him, nor shall you conceal him. But you shall kill him. Your hand shall be first against him to put him to death, and afterward the hand of all the people. You shall stone him to death with stones, because he sought to draw you away from the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of slavery."

Luke 19:27 "But as for these enemies of mine, who did not want me to reign over them, bring them here and slaughter them before me."

This isn't even touching on the multiple passages which describe, endorse or even make it law to violently punish, rape and even kill women for offenses such as disobedience, having sex (consensual or not), or just being plain old foreign.

It's not an issue exclusive to Islam. Christianity is equally as guilty of violence, both threatened and enacted, against people it considers "other". I think in the west, we've just been kinda desensitised to the shit in the bible because it has been loudly cherrypicked for us our whole lives. These books are jam-packed with contradictions that allow people to choose whatever narrative fits their motives.

Personally, as an atheist, I think religion can have value where it allows people to build and maintain communities. However. It is also the single biggest and most insidious tool used to perpetrate evil on a global scale, and has been for hundreds if not thousands of years.

4

u/vonDubenshire Oct 02 '22

Islam is the religion which holds tenemos on non-coercion, acceptance of other religions, and anti-violence. Islanm is a peaceful religion.

😂

4

u/ramarr0 Oct 02 '22

I think this is a very good description of the difference.

16

u/[deleted] Oct 02 '22 edited Oct 02 '22

[removed] — view removed comment

20

u/[deleted] Oct 02 '22

[removed] — view removed comment

9

u/[deleted] Oct 02 '22

[removed] — view removed comment

6

u/[deleted] Oct 02 '22

[removed] — view removed comment

1

u/[deleted] Oct 02 '22

[removed] — view removed comment

1

u/[deleted] Oct 02 '22

[removed] — view removed comment

1

u/[deleted] Oct 02 '22

[removed] — view removed comment

→ More replies

0

u/[deleted] Oct 02 '22

[removed] — view removed comment

1

u/FlowerNaive Oct 03 '22

My comment was removed for "promoting hate" when all I mentioned that the ISLAMIC punishment for apostasy is death

1

u/traybro 7d ago

What a dishonest whitewashing of Islam… its founder was literally a warlord, slave owning pedophile, it’s been a violent oppressive movement (by modern western standards) since its inception. This idea that these radicals are a new diversion from some original more peaceful version of Islam is ignorant at best, willfully dishonest at worst

46

u/Alternative_Art_528 Oct 02 '22 edited Oct 02 '22 Take My Energy

Iislamist is fundamental Islam as based on the holy texts, teachings and practice. The equivalent of fundamental christians who go by the word of the holy books and practice that as if they are still living in medieval times.

Islam is also based on the holy texts teachings and practice but as with Christianity it is practices to some extent on an individual level with each person interpreting it in their own way.

The big difference between Christianity and Islam is that Islam has yet to go through any reformation process like with Christianity. The majority of christians acknowledged several hundred years ago that Christianity in it's pure form based based on the core teachings and how they were practiced was no longer fit for the modern world. Hence they reformed the interpretation of the faith amongst most sects and came to a practiced version that was more liberal and accepting of the modern world. Islam hasn't done that. There is no widespread acceptance amongst the Islamic world that the religion needs to be reformed, that why even today you will see in many Muslim countries or communities even in the west Muslim people, even young women who live relatively freely, refuse to speak up against islamist rule.

Imo you simply cannot claim that a religion is peaceful and good when there has at literally no point in history been a time from the Islamic conquests til now where there had been widespread practice of that religion in a peaceful manner and there is to this day no widespread appetite to reform it to be such. I grew up under Islam and Sharia law, i grew up amongst sunni and shia and bahai and sufi both in Islamic countries and in the west. For anyone who wants to tell me my opinion is ignorant or whatever, please go live some first hand experience of the Muslim world before feeling like your personal opinion is somehow more valid than others.

To OP, Masih Alinejad had an interesting segment on bill Maher last night where she discussed exactly this issue of western liberals refusing to acknowledge the fight for freedom in Iran and Afghanistan due to fear of islamaphobia. Those same supposed feminist politicians who go to Iran and put on a hijab while pretending falsely that this is Iranian culture are doing a massive disservice by validating the oppressive regime. So long as the west's supposed support of basic human rights does not encompass men and women who have bravely fighting and dying for the exactly that for 43 years in countries like Iran, then it is all of little more value than virtue signalling.

Edit:spelling

42

u/Zolivia Oct 02 '22

As an ex muslim woman who shared some of your experiences, thank you for saying this. Anyone who says islam is a peaceful religion is blatantly lying, whether to themselves, to others, or both. The majority of muslims in the world practice "their own version" of it, which is greatly influenced by their regions and cultures, but is also a mutated version. Wahhabism, the true practice of islam, which calls for strict adherence to the letter of the Koran and hadith [the recorded sayings and practices of the Prophet], is puritanical, brutal, and regressive. Women are treated like chattel, slavery and sex slavery are fully permitted, and anything homosexual is sin. I'm not sure how people can even understand the centuries worth of misogyny that muslim women are born into (and many times perpetuate) without growing up in the religion and managing to escape.

9

u/Easy-Concentrate2636 Oct 02 '22

While I agree on some points, I do want to point out that there are revolutionary parts of the Bible. I am not religious but have taken courses on Medieval texts. There are arguments that female women found a way to subvert their male dominated world through religious edicts to give up worldly goods and follow Christ. Women were able to get out of marriages and even read and write using religious pretexts.

Also, the Bible instructs people to give all their wealth to the poor and needy, not just the tax deductible amount. If people if the Christian faith actually followed that edict, the world would change radically.

13

u/Alternative_Art_528 Oct 02 '22 edited Oct 02 '22

That's fair, interesting points raised. I don't think *our points in that regard are necessarily misaligned or contradictory. People have historically used religion for good and for bad purposes, the former includes the examples you mention and my own reference to people's individual interpretation of each faith on their own life. But nonetheless, prior to the reformation in particular Christianity was still largely regressive, as is the continuing state of Islam.

2

u/traybro 7d ago

Muhammad was a warlord, slave owning pedo, and the hadiths about him and the Quran itself profess exactly what these “radical” interpretations of Islam practice. Surprise surprise, Islam as practiced in its region of origin (Middle East, and specifically Saudi Arabia) is a lot closer to Muhammad’s Islam than modern, whitewashed interpretations people here in the west try to profess.

12

u/IntoTh3Moonlight Resting Witch Face Oct 02 '22

When lives are being lost over a belief system, it becomes “fuck the belief system” in my book

101

u/shestammie Oct 02 '22

I’d be interested to see where you got this perspective from.

Support for Iranian women has been incredibly popular and all over social media, at least in the online spaces I frequent (which are very mainstream)

And western people in general love criticizing Muslim countries any time the opportunity arises. You’ll probably find more feminists that actually don’t care because it’s outside their country than you would find people scared of criticizing Sharia.

Just so you know, while people can be nasty to Christians on a personal level, Christianphobia doesn’t exist in places like America because Christianity is the dominant religion and foundation for how society operates. It’s a bit like complaining that people are mean to politicians. It’s not necessarily “nice” but there is zero collective or institutional threat. The same cannot be said for prejudice against Muslims.

1

u/The_RuthlessOutlaw Witch ♂️ 15d ago

It can be said for the Muslims who are using the worst aspects of their religion to control the governments where they live. Considering it is the “dominant religion and foundation for how society operates” as per your own justification.

1

u/shestammie 15d ago

I don’t understand you.

9

u/jessynix Oct 02 '22

I personally hate Islam just as much as Christianity and religion in general. I am not afraid of saying they are all bad. I support feminist revolutions everywhere.

9

u/RangerDickard Oct 02 '22

I think the term islamophobia is used here to refer to the mistreatment of people who "look" Muslim. I find it akin to a culture/appearance based racism.

Some people on the left are afraid to criticize Islam because they fear being lambasted by their peers as islamophobic.

Personally, I think criticizing the awful parts of Christianity and Islam is good and necessary.

I think being mean to people because of their processed faith is wrong. If they say they believe a woman is inferior to a man or some bullshit like that though, by all means call them out!

145

u/Dr_Julian_Helisent Oct 02 '22

Are you from the US? I have a hard time believing that a Muslim person raised in a post-9/11 United States doesn't understand what Islamphobia is. But in case that's true, Islamphobia refers to the widespread surveillance, harassment, and assault of Muslim people (or people assumed to be Muslim). In the USA, bigots have literally murdered Muslim people because they're Muslim. Accurate and knowledgeable criticism of Islam is not Islamphobia. Criticism that is based on prejudices against and/or is meant to demean Muslim people is Islamphobic.

As for what it's got to do with western Non-Muslim feminists, I really can't say without knowing more about the feminist circles you run in.

51

u/CardboardTerror Oct 02 '22

A Sikh man was even killed because of his turban, the bigots thought he was Muslim. So yeah criticism of Islam is warranted but don't throw away the concept of islamophobia for it, unfortunately it is needed.

8

u/TheSoloWay Oct 02 '22

After 9/11 there was a lot of racism and bigotry directed towards Muslims and various other peoples of colour, I'm not even Muslim and people have still called me various Islamophobic slurs from a terrorist or camel jockey to a sand n-word. I think a lot of us remember how casually racist that era was, saw the disasters of the Iraq war and naturally became kind of wary of any criticism towards Islam because usually it doesn't come from good faith actors but rather people trying to justify the ongoing imperialism in the middle east.

Like when I hear Sam Harris criticize Islam, I don't get the sense that he understands Muslim people, let alone gives any sort of shit about them because he only mentions it to make some weird political point like why religious profiling at airports is good actually.

8

u/olivinebean Oct 02 '22

I've seen more men chatting shit about "feminists" defending the religion. Really odd tactic from the incel movement to use the fight for freedom in Iran to shit all over women fighting for rights in other countries. We ALL deserve freedom, we ALL want to progress. The whataboutism is so gross. And so is organised religion, fuck that shit.

8

u/FirePuppyAttack Oct 02 '22

Who? Who are the feminists and activists who are refusing to support Iranian women? All I've seen is full-throated support.

I don't see any contradiction between supporting the feminist uprising in Iran and supporting the right of all people to practice the faith of their choice.

And I recommend researching Islamophobia - it's very real, and a big problem in the US, where hate crimes against Muslims (or even people mistaken for Muslims... just brown people in general) happen regularly.

22

u/mustifaq_ I worship Gojira-sama ♂️ Oct 02 '22

I think the problem is that people confuse what is Islamophobic and what isn't. I am an ex-muslim and whenever I say Islam is a bad and outdated religion, people call me Islamophobe just because I criticized their religion. But if I said something like "I don't want Muslims in my coutry" or "You should stay away from Muslims because they might to something bad" that would be Islamophobic.

48

u/ThxItsadisorder Oct 02 '22

This is probably an unpopular take but a person is not obligated to advocate or support every cause even if it overlaps with their values. If anyone is staying quiet it's likely because they don't know enough about this topic to say anything. Iran is fairly isolated due to sanctions so we can only wait for news but with the forced outages we only hear snatches of news.

Many people in my friend circle are aware of the protests and support them but do not know of meaningful ways to advocate.

My ex was Persian and I posted on my social media asking how we can help our sisters in Iran and if anyone knew of a protest locally and have had 0 responses. Even the Iranian-Americans I know are not talking about it on social media. This could be to protect themselves or their families in Iran. They've had to pay ransoms for relatives being held on bogus charges in the past.

36

u/Botryllus Science Witch Oct 02 '22

It's also happening at a time where women in the US are experiencing the erosion of our rights. I understand that Iranian women have fewer rights than US women, but in the US we're at a critical time to turn things around so we just don't have the ability to focus on the plight of people elsewhere. If people have money to donate, it's going to planned Parenthood. Activism by allies is going to be centered around reproductive rights in the US. There's also fatigue setting in as every day there's a new crisis somewhere. Ukraine is already taking a lot of focus. There are only so many hours in a day and dollars in the bank to make real change.

I've met so many wonderful Iranians (and one that was shitty but her shittiness was unrelated to her country of origin) that worry for their county. I want the regime to change, or loosen control. There's just little I can do to impact it.

6

u/ListenToTheWindBloom Oct 02 '22

I think this is a really important point. And actually humans aren’t designed/evolved/set up for the massive and often overwhelming influx of information and ethical dilemma in relation to how to respond to or process that information that the modern world provides. I have many friends who have had to significantly limit their news consumption for their own mental health. We simply can’t invest into our care about every single thing happening everywhere all the time. It’s painful for most people to not be able to help more and many see this as a personal failing when really I think it’s a reasonable and logical reaction to constant overload. Most of these people by the way are engaged in real world careers based on bettering their communities, as teachers, health workers, social workers, union reps, disability workers, family violence workers, volunteers etc etc and so critiquing them for ‘checking out’ when every issue in the world becomes a bit too much seems not only unfair but also unhelpful broadly to those same causes in their local forms - should they sacrifice the energy they need to pour into their own community for the sake of doing more for the global community? It’s not always clear cut…

7

u/littlegirlblue2234 Oct 02 '22

As a Muslim, I agree with you however, here in America people literally wait for stuff like this to harass and bully Muslims, I’ve also seen a lot of folks talking about it, Muslims, like myself, as well.

69

u/geek_chick_777 Oct 02 '22

Thank you for saying this.

44

u/sexyhumblebee Oct 02 '22

I think I understand your question and I think the reason you having this question is because as you have stated, are not from America. It is a complex issue.

I will start off by saying I have seen a lot of support from women in the west for the women in Iran at least in the online circles I frequent.

Now as someone who grew up in a Muslim community, with Muslim family members and lived through 9/11 I will give you the answer to, "what the hell is lslamophobia?"

America as with most countries, does not have a good history with minorities, whether that be based on race, religion, sexuality or otherwise. Islamophobia is a term used to describe discrimination against those of the Muslim faith or anyone who is or looks of middle eastern decent. ( see Sikh men being attacking post 9/11 ) The muslim community has faced much discrimination and violence because of falsely generated fear based only on their religeon. America sort of has delicate politics when it comes to being critical of a culture or religion which you yourself are not involved in. Even if you are speaking against an injustice, if you do not come from that community people kind of consider it not your place to speak. Because of this others usualy if they want to help tru and redirect the attention off themselves and towards the oppresed to let them speak for and represnt themselves. Again it's hard to explain.

Now with your comment about christianaphobia. This cannot exist in America as it is the predominant religion even to the extent that we see how it is currently effecting politics and being used to determine who gets what rights. To make that argument comes off as white people complaining they are being discriminated against when laws are enacted to protect marginalized communities. It's not a thing, it will never be a thing.

Your frustration is valid, by all means but, you should understand its much more nuanced than you think and just because some people are not as outwardly vocal as you would like does not mean they defend the way Iranian women are being treated.

9

u/RagingBeanSidhe Oct 02 '22

The worst part being that the Bible is the same one as far as the Old Testament and Quran. Same shitty patriarchal beliefs that some here are fighting to make common again. They are so against a religion based on the same story, its mind boggling.

1

u/The_RuthlessOutlaw Witch ♂️ 15d ago

But that is a Tu Quoque fallacy and doesn’t disprove a thing OP said. Which still makes their concerns foundationally valid.

6

u/belmoria Oct 02 '22

I think it might also be worth adding to this discussion that western social media has a SEVERE problem with callout culture and people seeking clout/entertainment by looking for something to criticize and things like calling out Islamophobia are easy to gain the backing of the ignorant masses on even when the critique may have valid points and even be nessecary. A bunch of people will really piggy back onto YEAH THAT IS BAD without looking into the true context of the origional statement or being aware of the situation as a whole.

6

u/Apocalypse_Jesus420 Oct 02 '22

They dont see the big picture which is that all organized religion treat women like second class citizens.

25

u/prismaticcroissant Sapphic Witch ♀ Oct 02 '22

Many people don't understand what we're fighting for is choice. Many Muslim women in the west aren't able to wear hijab safely and we fight for them. So when we fight for Iranian women for the right to NOT wear coverings, they think we're being hypocritical. They think in black and white and if something isn't one way, it has to be the other. But all of this is about CHOICE and that every woman worldwide should be able to decide what is best for her

3

u/Purplekaem Oct 02 '22

Yes. I mentioned in another comment that these people don’t understand nuance so I worry about them taking logical comments as a sort of support for their racist, bigoted stance toward Muslims in the US.

5

u/Both-Pack8730 Oct 02 '22

My friend in Afghanistan is now atheist because of what’s happening to them there. I understand

5

u/KingdomCome0 Oct 03 '22

This right here!!!!! Everyone should be allowed to critize a religion!!! Also to practice it as long as they don't force it onto others.

26

u/melxcham Oct 02 '22

Islamophobia is mostly repackaged racism, from what I have seen. Strict Muslims and fundamentalist Christians are very similar in their views on social issues, but there’s a reason why one is demonized and one is celebrated.

I don’t support any religion that thinks I am an abomination for being gay, or that I am subhuman for being born female. I don’t go around harassing people over it and I think people should have the right to believe and practice whatever they want (as long as they don’t harm anyone in the process) but I wouldn’t choose to invite it into my life. I hope the people of Iran win this fight.

18

u/DiligentProfit1011 Oct 02 '22

As a Hindu, and a follower of the Shakti tradition, I will openly say that Islam and the other Abrahamic faiths must be rendered into obsolescence. However, this cannot be done through open hostility against practitioners or through violence.

Uplifting women will naturally phase these misogynistic religions out of practice over the course of several generations. It will be hard fought and a long uphill battle, but at the end, thousands of years of Abrahamic corruption can be reversed in tbis way.

Islam is not the only culprit, and I even rebel against the patriarchal brahmin orthodoxy within the hindu structure. It's why I am firmly within the path of the mother Goddess.

Calling for offensive violence or bigotry against individual members of Abrahamic religions is not only morally wrong, but we also sink to their level. We just have to show that a better way does exist, no matter what your spiritual path.

4

u/thedudesews Oct 02 '22

I have no problem being seen as Islamophobic. I dislike Islam I dislike Judaism and Christianity. They are all tools of control

4

u/blishbog Oct 02 '22

I think the risk is overlapping too much with evil US efforts to destabilize rivals for reasons devoid of feminism. Our blockade harms countless women of all ages. We defend it with a bully’s “stop hitting yourself” logic we’d instantly reject in reverse

Support Iranian feminists who say F the CIA too

4

u/MyFaceSaysItsSugar Resting Witch Face Oct 02 '22

Maybe people that don’t live in the US and other non-Muslim states don’t know what Islamaphobia is or the level that it occurs at in Western countries because it is real and it is a major issue. There are places in the US where wearing a headscarf means you can get rocks thrown at you. When Osama Bin Laden attacked there were, and really still are, Americans who felt that all Muslims are terrorists. My mom was a doctor in a largely Somali neighborhood and had patient after patient cancel after 9/11 because they were afraid for their safety. Islamophobia is assuming every women or man with a head covering is a terrorist. It’s confusing a man writing calculus formulas on a plane for someone writing terrorist Islamic notes because he had brown skin and a beard. Being anti-Islamophobia does not mean supporting every passage of the Quran. In all honesty the Quran is irrelevant. Sexism, misogyny, and homophobia exist across the Bible and Torah as well. There’s no point sitting down and critiquing every passage of ancient religious texts and canceling the ones with problem passages because that would mean canceling all of them. It’s better to just allow people to chose to practice or not practice their faith as long as they’re not harming anyone else.

What can happen is a blurring between a religion and the countries that have that religion as their official religion. There are people who see any criticism of Israel as antisemitism when it’s not. It’s criticizing the actions of a country. Maybe the same is happening with people criticizing Iran’s actions getting labeled as Islamophobic, but most “woke” or liberal people believe in freedom of religion. That means a freedom to practice your religion as you define it. We believe that a headscarf needs to be a choice. I don’t know of anyone supporting the state actions of Iran because they’re worried about being labeled as Islamophobic. Western action or inaction on what middle eastern countries do is politically complicated because of oil production as well as because of how we already messed with middle eastern governments too much and made a huge mess of it. The US put a conservative Shaw in power in Iran and Iran is still recovering from that.

0

u/The_RuthlessOutlaw Witch ♂️ 15d ago

In all honesty the Quran is irrelevant. Sexism, misogyny, and homophobic exist across the Bible and Torah as well.

But this is a Tu Quoque Fallacy (whataboutism) and doesn’t disprove a single concern OP wrote in their post. Citing fReEdOm oF ReLiGiOn is irrelevant when we’re talking about legitimate trauma that comes from religious upbringings.

4

u/commanderquill Science Witch ♀ Oct 02 '22

I'm Armenian from Iran. I grew up in the US. Welcome to my experience.

When I went to Iran, I told my friend a story of when my mom went to a store and an extremely old man fell down and couldn't get up. Since every other person in the store was a woman, no one helped him. My mom finally did and when one woman scolded her for helping, she shot back that she was Christian and was left alone. My former friend, who is a trans man and one of the most leftist people I've met, responded that I shouldn't say things like that, in other words I shouldn't talk about my lived experience in Iran, because it was Islamophobic and gave racist people tools with which to encourage Islamophobia.

Every time I remember that I get pissed off. What a wonderful example of acceptance and understanding in the US, where you should never ever learn about people elsewhere in the world.

4

u/Flickeringcandles Oct 02 '22

I can guarantee that no feminist woman is afraid of being labeled "islamophobic" when it comes to quashing things like oppression, misogyny, and rape.

4

u/[deleted] Oct 02 '22

Fuck all religions

20

u/ottereatingpopsicles Oct 02 '22

I’ve learned that I shouldn’t tell someone what their religion says and why it’s wrong. Religion is personal. I think for many Muslims, if a non-Muslim said what you said about islams views on homosexuality, woman’s rights, and rape as a tool of war, many Muslims would say “I am Muslim, and that’s not what I believe, so it is not Islam”. It’s the same for Catholics, if you say that the Catholic Church places women in positions subservient to men, many Catholics will say “I’m Catholic, and I don’t believe that, so it’s not Catholicism”.

That said I hope the Iranian regime collapses in a ball of fire. It’s oppressive and patriarchal and evil and uses Islam as a method of control. But the citizens of Iran should be free to practice Islam and any other religion as they see fit.

9

u/RangerDickard Oct 02 '22

I think what you pointed out is certainly a facet of American culture. I also totally agree with you that assigning someone beliefs based solely on their religion is silly. Participants of the same religion can have massively different views.

That being said, I think it's important that we start criticizing religion more. Even if it's not our own. If we don't talk about this subject, we allow the patriarchy to persist unchallenged longer.

As a former Catholic, the religion absolutely subdues women. While most Catholics express they believe men and women are equal, the structure of the religion represses women. Kind of like how systemic racism allows injustice to persist even though most of the people allowing the system to continue wouldn't consider themselves racist.

15

u/emiremire Oct 02 '22

Every feminist I know has been supporting Iranian protests and I have no clue where this perspective comes from. This type of generalization with little to no evidencw is really tiring and not helpful for the cause.

3

u/Ehellegreg Oct 02 '22

I just feel like it’s not my place to criticize Muslim practices when my own race has its issues I can speak on. I support Iranian and Muslim women whether they want to wear that garment or not.

3

u/whatsasimba Oct 02 '22

I'm in the U.S. I've been following this story, and a few days ago, I looked on both Fox and CNN sites, as well as drudge and BBC. Fox had no coverage, and I think I know why. They promote Christian Nationalists (i.e., people who want the U.S. to be ruled by Christianity).

They can't point out the dangers of religious totalitarianism without messing up their own talking points. And they certainly don't want to point out how people have the power to take back their power against regions extremists.

Every feminist I know is rooting for the women.

3

u/Tall-Football3769 Oct 02 '22

From what I’ve seen as far as commentary, we don’t want to vilify a woman’s CHOICE to wear religious coverings. I think there is a small fear that could be misconstrued as opposing their coverings period. Honestly, I haven’t seen this though, genuinely. It’s pretty understood that this is about the oppressive regime and not Islam as a whole.

3

u/ImRileyLou Oct 02 '22

Yea, supporting the feminist movement in Iran is not Islamophobia by any means, and people who use the Islamophobia that way are either wrong or willfully peddling a narrative that sows devision where unilateral support of this historic movement should be.

Islamophobia, from my white view, is most relevant of a talking point when people who look like they are muslims are racially discriminated against. This ain't the case when a movement of Iranian women are breaking off their chains from a fundamentalist theocratic state.

I hope history will remember this movement for the progress made. It takes much more bravery to demonstrate on threat of death than I think most of us can imagine.

3

u/ButterscotchNo4481 Oct 02 '22

I’m a former journalist and wrote my thesis on feminist agency, I’m an American woman, and I am totally sharing and informing many women and friends of this plight. I am so proud and amazed by the brave women in your country. Your post is beautiful, honest and fair. Here’s my attempt to answer your thought provoking questions—Since 9/11, Americans have espoused Islamophobia as it was “caused” by extremist Muslims. Although many Americans believe it was an inside job. Either way! It’s been exacerbated by ISIS and the Iraq war. It’s further exacerbated by the Saudi prince decapitating a journalist. There’s many reasons as to the why. When we are phobic around Christians, we typically label it the Religious Right Extremists. Or Domestic Terrorism. Hope that helps! Big hugs to you on your journey and never stop fighting!

4

u/hoseiin Oct 02 '22 edited Oct 02 '22

I understand where the term started, and I'm against any discrimination on people based on their believes. I'm an Iranian living in the EU, I know the feel of being stopped for "random" checks, mostly because the way you look or the nationality of the passport in your hand. I think it's a form of racism that labeled by the religion, For example, I'm not a Muslim, but I'm from Middle East, and look like a Middle Eastern, so I look Muslim enough by their measures.
When the protests started many Muslim TikTokers were making videos that women of Iran are disrespecting Islam for burning their enforced Hijab. Many Muslim activists were/are angry too and calling it Islamophobia.
I have another article about the depth of the oppressions on women in Iran in r/Feminism and there were comments from people saying they think they shouldn't talk about it because they will be called out as Islamophob.

3

u/ButterscotchNo4481 Oct 02 '22

Also, if it makes you feel any better, I’m Sicilian and look very ethnic. When I grew up on the east coast, people asked me if I was Iranian ALL THE TIME. Since moving to Southern California, everyone thinks I’m Mexican. So if you move, you’ll find people will think you’re a different race, which is amusing in some ways. The racism never stops. I wish you well and try to understand that women in America care very much about what’s happening in Iran. We have a very bad relationship with that country. We would love to see a revolution trample the clerics. Trust me. We are excited over here for what y’all are doing.

2

u/ButterscotchNo4481 Oct 02 '22

I understand. My husband is from France and he said anti Muslim sentiment is much stronger there than America. That being said, he grew up in an area where Muslim men threw acid on women often enough for it to be a pattern as well about 20 terrorist attacks by Islamic Fundamentalists. A lot of what you see and experience in the EU is due to colonialism. Sorry if I’m not understanding your question- but you asked why we only say this phobia word for Islam and I’m explaining that we have phobias of other religions here too-but we are not as tame with them, we call them Extremists and Domestic Terrorists when they’re Christian.

3

u/CJs_goldfish Oct 02 '22

I get the hesitation (kinda) so what I posted was basically … Iran restricted access to social + internet in response to the death of Mahsa Amini at the hands of the morality police. They can’t post about it, so I am. I don’t pretend to know Iranian politics but surely we can all agree on not KILLING WOMEN for wardrobe infractions.

There are ways to talk about feminist issues without making it about religion, and you’ve kind of got to carve those out in order to have a rational conversation about it.

10

u/AZBreezy Oct 02 '22

It sounds like you're going through a lot and I'm sorry about that. I also just don't understand the correlations you're drawing and the conclusion you are coming to

I'm just trying to wrap my head around this. You're suggesting that there are some number of people in the US who are, to your dissatisfaction, not actively supporting the movement in Iran because they don't want to be accused of hating Muslim people?

Where are you getting this information? What is going on that informs this perspective? What would you like to see happen instead?

5

u/Lyvectra Oct 02 '22

Sorry, I can’t keep up with how fast this changes, and I want to clarify before I get downvoted and banned again that I am asking a question, not stating a belief:

When did the word “woke” become negative?

10

u/HildemarTendler Oct 02 '22

I think it's just divisive. It gets overused and has generally lost any real meaning. Now that the right uses it as an insult, it's just better to call someone a decent human instead of sticky to labels like woke.

5

u/[deleted] Oct 02 '22

[deleted]

2

u/hoseiin Oct 02 '22

I'm actually a man & a feminist 🤷‍♂️ But thanks for raising this point about Oct 1st rallies.

4

u/Starsteamer Literary Witch ♀ Oct 02 '22

In the UK, it’s a label for attitude of the bigoted arseholes who do the whole “Muslim bad” bull, following the narrative of the right wing press.

In regards to your question about Iran, I think it’s not been on the news enough. I’ve been seeing it online but not on mainstream very much. Either because the news agencies are themselves bigoted, or they don’t like stories that show women rising up.

2

u/Fool_of_a_toker Oct 02 '22

Thank you for bringing this up

2

u/Flexybend Oct 02 '22

For me is mainly the powerlessness. I just really don't know what would help them.

2

u/BubblyPresence9606 Oct 02 '22

Nobody could’ve worded it better. Thank you for doing this.

2

u/Acrobatic_Pen7638 Oct 02 '22

Islamaphobia is an issue in the US. And it really is in part due to 9/11. I think a better way to put it isn’t the fear or hatred of islam, just the fear/hatred of anyone that passes as middle eastern. Because Sikh have been relentlessly targeted and harassed by people post 9/11 for “looking Muslim.” It’s a complex issue here where obviously you should be able to criticize islam, and I very much am not a fan of islam because I don’t like organized religion in general. But I recognize the nuance needed to discuss issues where people want to strip Muslims of religious identities while not having the same energy for Christians. There’s some people that will call critique of anything islam as islamaphobic, but that’s like saying critique of anything Jewish or of Israel is antisemetic (I’m Ashkenazi). And the idea that because of racism and persecution, that makes all criticism or concern invalid is a horrible belief as it shames people from pointing out real injustices and wrongs. Hasidic Jews aren’t happy about people pointing out their schools in New York being absolutely terrible and have gone around to label people as being antisemitic who do raise concerns, and it’s no different than the people who call the critique of forced Islam as Islamaphobic.

2

u/vanyali Oct 02 '22

There is a contingent of people in the West who argue that hijabs are part of Muslim culture and when people say anything against hijabs, or say anything implying that Muslim women might not really want to have to wear hijabs and are only forced to wear them by men, that those people just hate Muslim culture and therefore hate Muslims. It is really hard for a lot of people to deal with nuance, like “Muslim culture is valid and OK generally but women who don’t want to wear hijabs shouldn’t be forced to”. That is a very controversial statement that will likely get me kicked from this subreddit.

There are some people who are actually prejudiced against Muslim culture and Muslims. I’m not denying that prejudice exists, and it is extreme, dogmatic and hurtful. But there have emerged voices on the “other side” that mean well but can become equally dogmatic in defending Muslims against those bigots. Unfortunately, whenever people become too rigid and dogmatic in their beliefs, even when well-meaning, they can easily lose sight of reality and end up arguing for nonsensical positions.

Of course no one should be forced to wear hijabs. Of course anyone who wants to wear hijab should be able to do so. Neither should be harassed for their choice. But what about girls who wear hijab because their families force them to? That’s not so easy a situation to figure out. And how many women who wear hijab would prefer not to but are forced to do so by their fathers or husbands? Is that OK because that’s “Muslim culture” or is it bad because it infringes on women’s rights to autonomy?

The Western World hasn’t resolved that question, so most sensible people just keep their mouths shut, pretty much the opposite of what I just did here.

2

u/chinchabun Oct 03 '22

I haven't seen much hesitancy to talk about it, but when you do it's often because people are afraid of giving fuel to an outrage machine that will do two things on loop

  1. Talk about how Muslims are inherently dangerous

  2. Talk about how women there are the real feminists, not us western harpies. We should feel lucky no one wants to kill us over a religious issue.

This can often increase violence against Muslims and Sikhs (no one ever claimed Americans were good at telling who they were racist against)

Now usually your protest would be playing 24/7 on right wing channels, trying to use you as a cudgel, but they aren't which makes me think they realized how badly they screwed up on American women's abortion rights and are worried about parallels being drawn.

2

u/8swordsoffate We Do Not Worship ⚛ Oct 03 '22 edited Oct 03 '22

People are confusing criticising Islam (the religion, the system, etc.) with hating the people who identify as Muslim.

As an atheist, I don't have enough words to express how much I appreciate that you posted this.

6

u/Puzzled-Web-8868 Oct 02 '22

I mean as a fellow Iranian who grew up an a Muslim family but am agnostic, I think you should probably read into other religions before condemning Islam so harshly. The Bible also says horrible things about gay people and women. Fundamentalists of every religion are bad and I feel like many people in western countries are aware of that. I also see a lot of support for Iran all over social media right now! No offense, but you might be clouded by personal connections to the issue and may not be thinking objectively

10

u/sparksnbooms95 Science Witch ♂️ Oct 02 '22

As an American who grew up Christian, I don't think they should avoid condemning Islam harshly just because other religions (like Christianity) also say horrible things. Christianity also being horrible doesn't make Islam any less so.

I think all Abrahamic religions should be condemned equally, and harshly.

I'm sure there are other religions that deserve condemnation too, but I'm not familiar with any beyond the Abrahamic ones, at least not enough to have an opinion on them.

1

u/Puzzled-Web-8868 Oct 02 '22

Idk I just personally feel like everyone has the right to believe in any religion they want, as long as they aren’t pushing it on others. Condemning an entire religion, whether it be Islam or Christianity, is really disrespectful to those who practice it peacefully

4

u/hoseiin Oct 02 '22

How did I disrespect Islam in this post? I only cited a few chapters from Quran. But on a more general topic, things like race, country of origin, sexual orientation are peoples identity, you don't have a choice on that, and you're born that way, and is rightfully protected and people shouldn't be disrespected for who they are. But when you believe something, there's a thought process behind that, you chose to practice and follow it, and like every other fruits of thoughts, you should be open to people criticising it and it goes with all religions. I don't agree with discriminations against religion or religious people, but I don't agree with labelling every criticism as disrespect.
If you're from a Muslim family, you probably are familiar with the term "Because God says so" to finish every conversation that the other part can't respond to rationally.

0

u/Puzzled-Web-8868 Oct 02 '22

The “disrespect” comment was more to the other commentor who stated that all people who are religious should be condemned, instead of just those who aim to instil their beliefs on others.

I personally don’t have an issue at all with critisising aspects of Islam or any other religion. My issue is with denying that there are a lot of people who practice their religion in a way that actually supports positive ideals, like some of my friends who are younger Muslim American feminists. They have absolutely encountered Islamaphobia in the US and it’s unjustifiable

5

u/sparksnbooms95 Science Witch ♂️ Oct 02 '22

When the pushing it on others part is baked into the religion, it's not really something I can ignore.

I agree that condemning an entire religion is disrespectful to those who practice it peacefully, however I don't have a problem with that. If those who practice peacefully and mind their own business don't want their religion disrespected/condemned, then they should be fighting for their religion to be reformed into something worthy of respect. If they aren't practicing the bad parts/don't agree with them, then they should want those parts removed, shouldn't they?

Strangely, I almost never hear people pushing for the necessary reform. They say they don't agree with parts of it (sometimes even the majority of it), but then do nothing to change it.

That makes me think two things. While they personally aren't harming/harassing others, they also don't care if others are negatively impacted by the actions of other members of their religion. Alternatively, they secretly agree with the bad parts, but aren't willing to face the backlash of practicing them and so claim they don't agree with them.

As far as I'm concerned, those who say nothing/do nothing are complicit, and that doesn't deserve respect.

0

u/Puzzled-Web-8868 Oct 02 '22

I mean how do you propose reforming a religion that is like 2000 years old? Picking and choosing which parts of the religion to believe in is a practical choice for the average peaceful worshipper. I don’t understand all the hostility against people who aren’t doing others harm in anyway, just because they aren’t actively looking to reform an entire religion on their own

2

u/sparksnbooms95 Science Witch ♂️ Oct 02 '22

I don't know how one would go about reforming an religion. It would be fairly simple if everyone was in unanimous agreement, but we humans aren't very good at that. It may not be possible.

Picking and choosing works to a limited extent, but at some point so much is being disregarded that it's practically a different religion. At some point, it's more sensible to go find a different religion to identify with that actually shares your beliefs.

You don't understand the hostility "against people who aren't doing others harm in any way", but I disagree with the notion that they aren't doing others harm. In my opinion they are, albeit indirectly. They are doing harm by perpetuating the religion, including the parts they don't agree with. Perpetuating the religion enables the harm caused by the religion, including that caused by the followers who do believe/practice the bad parts.

In the case of Christianity in the US, the "good/peaceful Christians" sat idly by, or even helped (by voting) those "bad Christians" who wish to impose their religion on everyone. That is how we ended up with a Supreme Court that is actively working to get rid of separation of church and state, and regularly makes rulings aligned with their religious beliefs, but directly opposed to precedent and/or the values of the American people.

0

u/Puzzled-Web-8868 Oct 02 '22

So I do agree with you about the US Supreme Court, but that is more about politics than religion. While i am aware that religions basically stem from political beliefs back in the days they were founded, I think they have evolved to be a different kind of institution now. There is absolutely reform that can be done to strengthen separation of church and state in the US government, without punishing Christians who peacefully practice.

I do think Islam is unique In that it can both be a religion and a form of government and I actually think that’s what the OP of the post is getting confused also. I absolutely condemn Islamic governments of all types that aim to force their people to conform to the religion. I however don’t think that it’s right to judge an American muslim who has no animosity towards anyone and wants to quietly practice their own beliefs, just because they won’t convert or try to reform something that you admitted previously “may not be possible”

5

u/chestgravity Oct 02 '22 edited Oct 02 '22

Try r/feminism also.

3

u/castawaysyrup Oct 02 '22

Thank you for highlighting this. As a white girl is difficult to discuss the topic without sounding racist but then I decided humans rights are more important than peoples opinion about me.

2

u/BabserellaWT Oct 02 '22

We’re waaaay into supporting it.

As I commented in another subreddit: Saying that EVERY woman in a hijab is obviously abused and oppressed is Islamaphobia, because it makes a sweeping generalization about Muslims. It would be no different than saying, “Every nun in a habit is obviously abused and oppressed.”

If a Muslim woman chooses to wear a hijab of her own free will, that’s fine — just like it’s fine if a nun chooses to wear a habit of her own free will.

It’s not bigotry to call out abusive religious practices by oppressive regimes.

2

u/UnderYourBed69 Oct 02 '22

Fuck Islam and all the religions of that patriarchal piece of shit god of Abraham.

2

u/archideldbonzalez Oct 02 '22

You don’t know what islamophobia is? My friend who has been stopped going through security every time he has ever been to an airport does. You can still make your point without minimizing islamophobia

1

u/Tooma8 Geek Witch ♀♂️☉⚧ Oct 02 '22

Holy crap thank you! This is where the "woke culture" is starting to play against us, cuz we are the ones that are expected to be oh so accepting all the time.

The privileged western "feminists" that call you Islamophobic don't actually know how things work in some parts of the world.

People are suffering and sometimes there just isn't room for "political correctness"

2

u/Conscious-Charity915 Oct 02 '22

When you base a government on religious belief, you instantly create an underclass to persecute. Islamophobia is a misnomer. Nobody in the West fears Islam. We fear being poor.

1

u/si7rusw Science Witch ♀♂️☉⚧ Oct 02 '22

As someone who has seen the oppressiveness of islam, i really hate the word Islamophobia. Islam is inherently oppressive, sure, you can choose to get oppressed (ie, some women choose to wear the hijab) but you are setting a bad example because the men following islam are really easy to radicalize, (same for evangelism as well) and same for catholics(well, more so in the 10-18th century, but yes).

It's not a phobia. Sure, you can choose to follow islam. But the leaders of that religion want it to be the only relegion around(as said in their books, well, interpretations, but still it's said anyway.)

All religion is oppressive. Islam even more so. Christianity as well, same as for any organized religion. It's it's primary job, which is to control people.

Fuck islam

9

u/OfLiliesAndRemains Oct 02 '22 edited Oct 02 '22

Your opinion on Islam aside, because I have no real knowledge of Islam or any deeply held conviction on religion in general, your definition of Islamophobia seems a bit off. You're right to say that it is easy for religions to slide into conservatism, because the whole idea is that you lock in certain values as universally good and evil and that will tend to end up conservative over time, but the term Islamophobia is not about Islam, it is about those who use hatred of Islam as a religion to mask their xenophobia and racism.

To give a great example of this, whenever there is a resurgence of Islamic political violence in the news, either due to a terror attack, or a political development in the middle east, or the election of a Muslim to the house of representatives, etc. etc. Sikhs become the victims of hate crimes by people convinced that they are Muslims. Sikhs are not Muslims, but this is still Islamophobic violence. Because what really triggers the people doing these attacks is brown people practicing another religion than they do themselves. They don't actually care about what the religion says. They are just racists, but they just use their reasonable objection to Muslim theology to mask their racism.

In that sense, it absolutely is a phobia. it's just repackaged Orientalism/racism

1

u/si7rusw Science Witch ♀♂️☉⚧ Oct 02 '22

This is more of a western issue to be honest. But i do see the point of irrational hate from the uneducated masses. Still, it's not enough to justify the protection of islams or islamists who say they come in peace. Persecution aside, the solution is just secular education through schools and prosperity.

As someone once said, people will never be free until the last king is strangled by the entrails of the last priest.

1

u/LadyNyxPyx Oct 02 '22

It has nothing to do with hating Islam and EVERYTHING to do with a woman’s right to choose! The people who are making it about religion are fucking idiots!

-2

u/Emergency_Elephant Oct 02 '22

The problem can also be a discussion resulting in islamophobia can happen because of the current Iran situation. I've seen so many people say blanket negative things about head coverings because of the Iran situation, like head coverings are always bad and always oppressive regardless of context. That's islamophobic. This type of mentality in the past has even resulted in some western countries banning head coverings. I fully support the Iranian fight for freedom but I do think it can be a fine line to walk in the west because of a lot of people being pre-poised for islamophobia

0

u/hannahhalfnelson Oct 02 '22

In addition to the other great, more thoughtfully put together comments here, I'll add that any feminists hiding behind fear of expressing prejudice are actually showing you their prejudice.

America's white feminism is just that - the fight for liberation of white women, and otherwise can be incredibly exclusionary, often leaving trans folks, black women and other groups behind in their efforts. Much of America's feminist history involves white women fighting for equality with white men, which is more easily done by leveraging their whiteness as a tool for assimilation into white male spaces.

Obviously not all feminists who are white engage in white feminism, but there is a significant subset who do and they have been at the forefront of numerous feminist activities in the US such as the suffragette movement.

So with that cultural context in mind, it's actually not surprising when white feminists perpetuate white supremacy or are "afraid to appear prejudiced". If they're afraid of appearing so, it's because they probably are, but they are willfully ignorant of it as it conflicts with their self-view and self-perceived values.

Context: I am a white mixed race American cis woman.

1

u/hannahhalfnelson Oct 02 '22

Also: this manifests itself as individualism a lot of the time. Meaning, those that engage in white feminism will generally not advocate for any issues that don't directly affect them. As an example, black and indigenous activists have been screaming about their lack of reproductive rights and history if forced births and forced sterilizations in this country forever, but the white feminist population as a whole did not rally behind those issues until Roe V Wade was overturned, because now it directly effects white women and especially white middle class women.

1

u/CyrilNorthcote Oct 02 '22

I definitely support the women of Iran, as well as all people everywhere, in their fight for bodily autonomy, freedom of expression, equal rights, etc. Full stop.

I think the thing about public discourse on the situation in Iran that makes me uneasy is the fact that a lot of people in the U.S. are using it as carte blanche to be hella Islamophobic. And by “Islamophobic” I mean painting all Muslims as backwards, stupid, primitive people on the basis of their faith.

Yes, there is misogyny in the Qur’an. In the Bible too. In probably any text written more than 1000 years ago. (And in much more recent texts too, but that’s another conversation).

However, I also have several hijabi friends who are vocal feminists. They’re Muslim, yes, but that doesn’t necessarily mean they’re homophobic or misogynist. They’ve interpreted their faith in a way that makes sense for themselves and for contemporary society.

There are some Americans who refuse to see it that way, though. For them Islam = bad and any woman who wears a head covering must be oppressed by a backwards culture. I would add that you see a lot of American’s who don’t actually give a rat’s patootie about women’s rights clutching their pearls over hijabs while failing to bat an eye about reproductive justice in the U.S., for example. In other words, I see people using this historic moment in Iran as a soapbox for their own bigotry.

So, my point is the landscape of public discourse about Islam in the U.S. is complicated. I always try to make it clear that I refuse to be lumped into the group of Americans who are still clinging to Bush-era Islamophobia.

But I, as well as all my Muslim feminist friends, fully support women’s right to choose how they dress, how they behave, and obviously the right to safety in their own bodies.

Just my two cents.

1

u/mandy30p Oct 02 '22

I mean, the Bible's full of proper wacko stuff too, I wouldn't think it's just an Islam thing. With our sisters in Iran I want to support but I don't know how best to do something. Is just getting the word out enough?

1

u/chlorenchyma Oct 02 '22

There was a woman on NPR (or maybe an NRP or Al-Jazeera that was on a different channel, idk, i consume a lot of news), and she was Iranian and she basically said there's not a whole lot that women in the west can do. In part, because of how we've interfered there historically and just fucked shit up. And also because the current regime would equate it to, "seeeee they support this, so it's obvs bad." --> paraphrased poorly

I would love to support the women over there, but I don't know how.

1

u/humblerunstle Oct 02 '22

This sub is awesome. Makes me feel way less insane. What you're saying i think about all the time. The best example I can see was racism around closing the airport during a pandemic. Many issues we NEED to talk about are shrouded in taboo things we can't talk about.

Don't get me started on how I think that's intentional.

For instance if I say take care of problems at home first. I see that as "turn a blind eye to how we treat humans outside the west and enjoy the iPhone and nikes and shut up about It. "

1

u/Whimsywynn3 Oct 02 '22

I think large public opinions can’t handle nuance, and there is a lot of detail involved in holding an opinion on women and Muslims. In America, the prevalent problem for Muslim women is being victimized or on the receiving end of prejudice from nonMuslim people due to 9/11. So the counter to that has been to attempt at uplifting a woman’s right to wearing a hijab without public hassling.

Supporting the absolutely necessary and vital Iranian womens movement to Not wear a head covering is “confusing”. Because you might be looked at publicly as on the same side as those who also don’t want women wearing a head covering, not because they care about women but because they too want to control them. OR if you support women who are Muslim then you might be supporting Muslim extremists.

So the basic opinions people might have in the US are : I am accepting, women can be Muslim in public. I am NOT accepting, women can only be Christian in public.

The idea of a third opinion: I am NOT accepting, women can only be Muslim in public.

Makes the aholes and nonaholes appear to share opinions depending on which place geographically you’re talking about.

Thus, people might be avoiding publicly talking about it.

1

u/bulbousbouffant13 Oct 02 '22

The Iranian Revolution in 1979 put the country into the dark ages.

2

u/Clean_Link_Bot Oct 02 '22

beep boop! the linked website is: https://youtu.be/zFmDccHxoew

Title: Iran 1970s Photos Before Revolution

Page is safe to access (Google Safe Browsing)


###### I am a friendly bot. I show the URL and name of linked pages and check them so that mobile users know what they click on!

1

u/Snail_jousting Oct 03 '22

The US should not get involved in the Middle East. Every time we mess around over there, it starts a new decades long conflict that makes it way worse for yous.

In your country, people are being beaten and murdered and worse because they refuse to wear hijab.

In my country, people have been beaten and murdered and worse because their name is Mohammad. Literally just because they have a name that "sounds Muslim."

To deny the existence of Islamophobia and demand action from people on the other side of the world who only think of you in terms of taking your natural resources and stamping out the next "terrorist attack" is short sighted.

1

u/VisiteProlongee 23d ago

Many feminists and activists are silent about Iran’s feminist revolution because they’re afraid of being labeled by Islamophobia

Evidences? How many?

what the hell is Islamophobia?

It is racism against persons who are muslim or are seen as being muslim. Many sikhs persons have been victims of islamophobia in USA after 2001-09-11.

Note: removed previous post because I used the term Woke in wrong context (I don’t live in the US and didn’t know it implies as negative). Apologies about that.

FYI «woke» is a far-right talking point and you do not have to live in USA (i don't) to know that.

Iranian women and people are fighting the biggest feminist movement in the heart of Middle East, where patriarchy have been ruling for centuries and yet many feminists and activists are silent because they are afraid of being labeled by islamophobia.

Evidences? How many?

I can't understand the term Islamophobia used in the west.

I am sorry for you.

Why criticising Christianity is not labeled by Christianophobia, but the same doesn't go with Islam?

Racism against persons who are christian or are seen as being christian is called christianophobia cf.

-2

u/Snow-of-the-Frost Oct 03 '22

What a hell is an ex-muslim ?

2

u/hoseiin Oct 03 '22

This is an interesting question, specially if you are from a free democratic country.
When you're unlucky enough to born in a Muslim family (and more unlucky to be from Iran in Islamic Republic era), you will be considered as a Muslim. Family, education, state TV, possibly everything will feed you with laws and practices of Islam, when you're a kid they try to show it to you as a funny thing, when you're becoming a teenager and start questioning, it becomes stricter, and stricter. I'm from a religious family, they sent me to super religious schools, and by learning all the laws I realised this is not what I want to practice for the rest of my life. This is not an easy decision, with all the guilt they give you your entire life for not obeying God in your every single act and fear of hell and that sort of imaginary stuff. There's also a real risk to your life in more stricter societies or families, but I don't get into details on that here.

0

u/NineTailedTanuki Sapphic Shadow Witch (they/them) ☉⚧ Oct 02 '22

I do have a friend whose friends are in the religion and they have done some debunking of Islam for me (both of us are in the US).